Are Elmer Keith's loads still safe?

[Jellybean]

Skip, there are a few used ones floating around, the only problem is that when you find one for sell, they are asking for a lot more money than they sold for new.

But since I'm more into seeing how light of a load I can make now days, it's not that high of a priority. If I shoot a "cannon", it's going to have a carriage under it.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Went to the range today with a few loads.

This whole 2400 debate got me to wondering about the two lots I have on hand. One from Hercules and one from Alliant.
My Hercules is 1 day over 21 years old, exactly. It is from lot #645 on February 6th, 1991. The Alliant is just a youngster @ 1 month over 1 year old, or, 13 months old.

I thought, well, it has been a while since I loaded up any 2400 loads and I don't remember much about the last time so......I stayed a bit under the old maximum of 22gr. (Elmer's load!)

I did use his boolit though. A 250gr projectile from a Mihec H&G #503 clone. Cast kind of soft but big too and lubed with White Label Lube's Carnuba Red.

This isn't a picture of what I shot today, but it is one of the bullet and a cartridge:

The load was 21.1gr and I did notice something interesting, 21.1gr of the new stuff was more in volume than 21.1gr of the old stuff. I thought that was interesting.


The firearm was my M629 Classic with a 5" barrel. All loads used Wolf Standard Large Pistol Primers and a firm crimp was employed. Use the picture above for reference.

Here is what I got across my Beta Chrony @ 15 ft:
OLD H2400
1401fps
1464fps
1435fps
1397fps
1420fps
1392fps
Low 1392fps
High 1464fps
Avg 1419fps
ES 72fps
SD 28fps

I shot 18 shots. 6 across the chronograph and 12 at a business card @ 25 yards. Decent groups but, man, this was a handful!

The New A2400 gave these results:
1302fps
1326fps
1305fps
1340fps
1313fps
1335fps
Low 1302fps
High 1340fps
Avg 1321fps
ES 37fps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SD 15fps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, the same weight was less volume with the old but I got higher velocities, by almost exactly 100fps, with the old. So, my conclusion is that the new powder is actually slower than the old, not the other way 'round.

With the newer 2400, there would be no way to get more than 22gr in a 44mag case and still get a bullet in it too. At least not one of mine that is trimmed to 1.272".

So, what does that tell you reloading gurus? Newer = slower?

Oh, I forgot to add that there were no flattened primers, at least, no more than usual with a full house 44Mag and extraction was super easy with just slight thumb pressure on the extractor rod.

Just food for thought.

 

[Treeman]

Skip, I think that just shows to go ya that variations in New and Old 2400 are naught but lot to lot variations that can deviate either side of the mean.You sure make pretty boolits. What do your kids look like?;^)

 

[Skip Sackett]

Oh, thanks! As for the kids, well, 5 of the best looking ones to ever walk or take a breath BUT, that ain't nothing compared to the 9 GRANDKIDS!



p.s. I agree about the lot to lot variations. My sentiments exactly.
FWIW

 

[Stu Honea]

Nice to review this old info.A lot of it is not fresh in my mind anymore.I do remember that I used 22 grains of 2400
with a 240 gr. Hornady half jacket bullet in a Ruger Super Blackhawk. I had worked up to 24 grains,but I was getting split cases on both new and once fired brass.
That's when I backed off to 22 grains and all was well.

 

[Kinman]

I've had great success with 17.0 gr of 2400 and a hard cast 240gr bullet. I preferred a lower dose to keep my accuracy potential in check. It was always fun to hand a few of those over to a friend that was shooting a .44 magnum and ask him to see what he thinks of these little .44 special loads.
I also have tried some of his loads in my '55 38-44 Outdoorsman, they are impressive and will probably accompany me while afield this spring while flyfishing, I've also got some snake-shot loads built for those little problems should they present themselves.

 

[phenson]

I shoot 12.5 grains of 2400 in .38 Spl cases. No current reloading manual recommends it that I know of. I only shoot these rounds in N frame Smiths or single action Rugers. I believe the reason no one publishes data like this anymore is because in our tacticool gun world of plastic and lightweight alloy ultra small revolvers, people dont have the common sense to not try it. Look at the old 32-20 round. They used to make a light load for small revolvers and a heavy load for rifles. Guess which one is the only load data or loaded ammo available today. It's made to be idiot proof

It always surprises me when I see people say that a load's unsafe if it doesn't meet whatever current specs call for, regardless of the gun it's to be fired in or the load in question. Given the use of some common sense (I know, it's hard...) and sound practices, it's hard to get into trouble if you know what you're doing. Half the fun of handloading is recreating the vintage loads that brought us to where we are today. My pre-24 doesn't know that SAAMI changed the specs or how old it is. If it worked for Skeeter and Elmer, and if I recreate those loads correctly for what's safe in my gun, there's no reason for it not to be safe. A little hot, maybe, if I want it that way.

 

[Ron Roehrick]

336A thanks for the Elmer Keith link its great reading. Ron.

 

[Gatofeo]

I have shot two of Elmer's memorial loads.
1. I shot his 44 special load in a Charter Arms Bulldog and it was absolutely miserable. if it was shot in anything other than a Ruger it was too hot.
2. one of his favorite loads in the 45-70 was the 405 grain soft point and 3031. I think it was 56 grains but could have been 54. it was also very brutal in a Ruger #1S. I couldn't believe he was shooting them in an 1886 Winchester. the Winchester is a strong rifle but not that strong. nobody will help you shoot them up.

Keith's old .45-70 load was a 400 to 405 gr. jacketed bullet over 53.0 grains of IMR3031.
Do NOT use this load.
I made a boxful about 30 years ago, for use in my 1977-made Marlin 1895. After a few (punishing) shots, I checked the cases: flattened primers, bulged head ahead of the rim -- sure signs of over-pressure.
Like yourself, I couldn't believe he was using this load in 1886 Winchesters.
I consider 50 grs. of IMR3031 under a 405 gr. jacketed bullet to be MAXIMUM in my Marlin. The Lyman No. 48 manual lists 51.5 as maximum. Either load, work up to it carefully from 45 grains.
Frankly, there is nothing to be gained by such action-straining loads. It's a .45-caliber bullet, weighing nearly an ounce! 19th century hunters were taking down grizzlies and bison with 400-500 gr. lead bullets at 1,000 to 1,200 fps.
Your rifle and shoulder will thank you.

 

[Kinman]

My favorite load for my 1886 Winchester is a 405g WLNGC Meister bullet over 44g of H4895, very accurate for this old rifle and comfortable on the bench...you gotta smile when you shoot these old guns and produce a decent group at 100yds. I love to tear little ragged holes in the target.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

I bought a copy of "Six Guns" in 1955. Still have it. But some of Elmer's loads were quite heavy. Tried his 44 Special loads in my SA Colt& backed them off 2 grains, Too much for me. But I've taken 5 deer with the reduced loads out of the old [1926] Colt. But old Elmer was the first of the gun writers that brought us into the smokeless age.

 

[M29since14]

I have to agree with Dick's comment about backing off on Elmer's load (in the 44 Magnum) for everyday shooting, but I do not think it was unsafe, per se. It is just a bit hard on the shooter, unless you really need it.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, EK did have the 22 grs #2400 load tested by White Laboratory and it was found to be acceptable. I generally use about 19.0 grs (same as for the .41 Magnum) and have found it much more pleasant to shoot. It would always knock down a 200m ram just as positively as would the 22 grs load, so it was good enough for me. I still prefer this load for most 44 Magnum shooting.

In .41 Magnum, I have always stayed at the low end of EK's recommendation, viz. 19.0 grs. That one runs around 1400 FPS in my 6" gun, which is plenty, as far as I am concerned. I can't see anything to be gained with a bit more powder.

I do see that newer lots of #2400 do seem to be more uniform than older ones, as Skip pointed out. I just tested a new batch of .41s made with new Alliant #2400 and compared it to my old notes from the last batch (in the '90s). Results were similar to Skip's. I will take 100 FPS less velocity and drastically increased uniformity every time, so I have a good opinion of the new-production #2400 powder.

 

[ColColt]

I've shot 22 gr of 2400 in the SBH and it was a handful. I wouldn't try that in my M29-3...more like 20 gr. Elmer was quite a character. I may have mentioned this before but I had the great pleasure of meeting this legend at the 1974 NRA Convention in Atlanta and it was an experience. Got to talk with him briefly, shake his meaty hand, and got him to autograph the G&A "Blackpowder" mag they had on hand. He had an article about the Sharp's rifle in it and that's where he signed. He kept thumbing through the magazine and said, "I know I've got an article in this sum bitch somewhere...ah, here it is." I never forgot that.