are mp sport 2 rifles sub moa capable ?

[rodney winston]

got my rifle set up with new geissele g2s trigger exellent trigger by the way . most test results seem to be 100 yard standard for grouping. i tried mine at 100 yards with pmc bronze 55 grain ammo 12 power scope and good rest was averaging 1.5 to 2.5 inch 5 shot groups. is this about the groups i can expect or is this base low tier rifle capable of moa or even sub moa with differand ammo or using lead slead cheat rest

 

[Tbat]

That is as good or better, as a lot of high end AR's, depending on the barrel type. It should be capable with the right ammo.

 

[OKFC05]

Sub MOA with an AR using factory ammo is not realistic in my experience. It is a shock to many new AR shooters that a bolt rifle costing half as much will normally outshoot them. Might try to find its favorite ammo....or just enjoy the fast shooting action games it does best.
I shot my first AR for qualification in 1966 and earned my small arms expert ribbon with it and later with the M15 handgun.

 

[Rastoff]

Sub MOA is possible, but it will take work. The AR is a 1MOA gun. The means it will shoot 1MOA with match grade loads that have the correct weight for the rifling twist rate.

I have a couple that will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards if I really take my time and use a bag to rest it on. 1.5" to 2" is more normal. I have another that will shoot under 1MOA, but it has a heavy stainless barrel on it with a Wylde chamber.

The truth is you bought a bottom end AR. Don't expect the best accuracy from it.

 

[sgtsandman]

To add to this a bit, the AR-15, M-16/M-4 were originally built as combat rifles with most shooting being at 100 yards or less.

The design has been improved on over the years but it's still a non-free floated barrel in many offerings, so like stated above, you can get MOA out of the rifle if you got a good one and do everything right. Sub-MOA is going to require some cash in upgrades and even then, you might not get it.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I am not familiar with the tolerances of S&W AR rifles. I own a 1994 production Bushmaster AR-15-A3 flattop with Winchester "USA" 45gr JHP Varmint ammo (product #2232), most lots were below 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards. I had 2 lots that were just under 1 MOA and 3 lots that were below 1/10 MOA. This was with a 4.5-12x40 Veri-X III and off a rest. At the time that was the cheapest American ammo on the market at $6.99 per 40 round box on sale. I picked up around 3000 rounds before the sale ended. (and only have about 500 left)

IN 1989 or 90 My best friend was an Ohio NG Battalion assistant armorer. Battalion HQ received 3, M-16's from the Army proving ground at Aberdeen, Md. These rifles were on old lower receivers (one was a X-15 with a 3 digit SN) all had signed target tags showing less than 1" 10 shot groups, shot with iron sights at 200 meters. These were not sniper rifles just good shooters to be issued to the troops.

The current state of ammunition on the market is terrible. The biggest problem for reloading is high quality primers. The best on the open market is the CCI BR-2. The current 55 gr FMJ BT are also very inconsistent in weight and profile. I have one 1000 count box of Winchester Army canceled contract 55's left from 25K I bought in the early 80's when the Army went to the steel core green tipped bullet. There is a world of difference between them and the new Hornady's.

Without good ammo you will not be able to determine if your rifle is accurate or not!

Ivan

 

[Rastoff]

To add to this a bit, the AR-15, M-16/M-4 were originally built as combat rifles with most shooting being at 100 yards or less.

No, I don't think this is true. The Marines and Army have always trained at 500 meters. I'm pretty sure that 500 meters was part of the original requirements.

Even so, it's important to remember that the M&P Sport II is an M4 clone, not an M16 clone.

EDIT: I just read the Army manual. They use a 200 meter zero. They state that this gives a zero that is closer to POA for most circumstances. They also talk about shooting out to 300 meters. So, yeah, it's not just a 100 yard gun.

 

[cyphertext]

First, what rifle are you wanting to compare this "low tier" and "bottom end" rifle to? If you are comparing to a rifle that is "mil-spec", such as a Colt LE6920 or a BCM, then don't expect all that much difference in accuracy.

If you are talking about the Sport vs. a Larue Predator... The Larue dang well better outshoot the Sport. But I bet that even though it is 3x the price, it doesn't shoot 3x tighter groups.

Personally, I think a 2 MOA group using PMC is pretty good. Get yourself some good ammo from Black Hills, Hornady, or other manufacturer known for quality, accurate ammo and give it another go.

 

[rodney winston]

thanks for info. when i was shooting the wind was blowing about 20 mph had my target shaking a lil.. will wind have much effect at 100 yards and i can not help myself and let my barrel cool i usuallly shoot a 20 round box before checking my targets downrange[ multiple 6 inch targets 5 shots each] does 20 shots through barrel inside of 2 minutes effect accuracy by barrel heating......and it is sad my cheap savige axis bolt with cheap ammo shoots sub moa but it is not near as much fun to shoot as the mp15

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

2 moa is fine for a battle rifle. Once you start agonizing over sub moa accuracy with a battle rifle you'll end up disappointed with an empty wallet.

As far as zero... I would never ever use a 200 meter zero. A 50 yard zero is much better! Riddle of the day...

 

[sgtsandman]

No, I don't think this is true. The Marines and Army have always trained at 500 meters. I'm pretty sure that 500 meters was part of the original requirements.

Even so, it's important to remember that the M&P Sport II is an M4 clone, not an M16 clone.

EDIT: I just read the Army manual. They use a 200 meter zero. They state that this gives a zero that is closer to POA for most circumstances. They also talk about shooting out to 300 meters. So, yeah, it's not just a 100 yard gun.

I stand corrected on the range then. I think we are still in agreement that the platform is generally not a sub-MOA rifle.

 

[sgtsandman]

thanks for info. when i was shooting the wind was blowing about 20 mph had my target shaking a lil.. will wind have much effect at 100 yards and i can not help myself and let my barrel cool i usuallly shoot a 20 round box before checking my targets downrange[ multiple 6 inch targets 5 shots each] does 20 shots through barrel inside of 2 minutes effect accuracy by barrel heating......and it is sad my cheap savige axis bolt with cheap ammo shoots sub moa but it is not near as much fun to shoot as the mp15

At 100 yards, wind will have some effect, especially if your target is moving around as well. You have multiple things working against you here outside of the rifle design.

You also can't really compare a bolt rifle to an AR-15. The barrel isn't free floating, so even just resting the hand guard on a bag can flex the barrel, especially if you are putting any weight on it with your hand.

Semi-auto actions tend to (but aren't always) not be as accurate as a bolt rifle either. Notice how the majority of sniper rifles are still bolt actions.

Savage rifles as well as AR-15s are generally known for not having great triggers. That will also have an effect on accuracy. It's a roll of the dice and sometimes people get a good trigger by chance.

This is not to beat up on your Savage since Savage has a loyal following for various precision rifle applications. They are a good rifle. This is also not a bash on the AR platform. One just has to take the design of the rifle into account on what it can and can't do and how much time and money you want to put into it to improve it's accuracy.

There are a ton of other factors that go into this but it kind of goes outside the scope of the thread and people don't want to read a book on a forum.

 

[tcon]

As far as zero... I would never ever use a 200 meter zero. A 50 yard zero is much better! Riddle of the day...

I get it.

 

[snm8510]

No, I don't think this is true. The Marines and Army have always trained at 500 meters. I'm pretty sure that 500 meters was part of the original requirements.

Even so, it's important to remember that the M&P Sport II is an M4 clone, not an M16 clone.

EDIT: I just read the Army manual. They use a 200 meter zero. They state that this gives a zero that is closer to POA for most circumstances. They also talk about shooting out to 300 meters. So, yeah, it's not just a 100 yard gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as this is just my opinion/observation, but wouldn't the AR15 be more effective at longer ranges than the M4 as it has a 16" barrel rather than a 14.5"? Granted, it's not the 20" on the M16, but to me, the AR15 should be a pretty good median between the M4 and M16.. Makes me scratch my head as to why the Marines just don't go with an M4 style rifle with a mid length gas system and 16" barrel since they talk about abandoning/are starting to abandon the M16 and going with the M4, yet want the benefits of both.. Keep in mind I'm not in the military, so I'm just mentioning what I've heard and mentioning my opinion as what I see that might be effective.. I'm not trying to sound all BA or anything so I apologize if it comes across that way.

 

[Magload]

I spent a lot of money and built a AR15 that will shoot sub 1/2 MOA best group so far at 100yds is 0.306 for 5 shots. But shooting it off the bench is all it is good for. Your Sport will be a lot more fun. My MP15 Mid Moe shot terrible groups with factory ammo around 2.3 MOA then I fed it my reloads and it dropped to 1 MOA. Don

 

[Rastoff]

As far as zero... I would never ever use a 200 meter zero. A 50 yard zero is much better! Riddle of the day...

Everyone's a comedian.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as this is just my opinion/observation, but wouldn't the AR15 be more effective at longer ranges than the M4 as it has a 16" barrel rather than a 14.5"? (cut this part out for brevity)

Um, well, there are a few things wrong here.

The AR-15 and M16 are almost the same rifle. The only difference is the selector. The M16 has Safe/Semi/Burst modes while the AR-15 only has Safe/Semi. They both have fixed stocks and 20" barrels.

The M4 comes with a 16" barrel and a collapsible stock.

Now, there is an almost infinite variety of configurations these come in. The most common in the military is still the M16 (actually the M16A1 or M16A2). In the Air Force, the M4 is the most common amongst the Security Forces. At least it's what I see every day. Select units with special missions can have rifles or carbines in almost any configuration. Rest assured, the military will have a specific designation for each one, but I don't know what they are. So, while some units might have carbines with 14.5" barrels, they are not common. Also, they would be issued to units who are specifically going to urban areas.

Is a longer barrel more effective at longer range? The common wisdom says yes, but there are some who say not. I have been researching this very subject a lot lately. Suffice it to say, at distances of 500 meters and less, the difference between 20" and 16" barrels is nil.

That's the short version. If you want the long version, including supporting facts, start a new thread.

 

[Rastoff]

This is my definitive word on the accuracy of an AR-15 without spending thousands of dollars.

I shot this target:

With this rifle:

It has a 16" stainless barrel with a "heavy" contour. Using Wolf Gold ammo, i.e. cheap ammo.

The optic is a PA Advanced Microdot with no magnification. The dot size is 2MOA. Because of the dot size, replicating this group would be no small feat. Certainly not with my eyes.

This group...

...was shot with this rifle...

...again with cheap ammo. This rifle has a 20" barrel that is Mil-Spec. The optic is a 1-4x24 and was set to 4x and I used a bag, not the bipod, for a rest.

So, yes, the M&P Sport is capable of 1MOA shooting, but 1.5-2MOA is a more realistic expectation. Sub MOA is not.

 

[cyphertext]

Everyone's a comedian.

Um, well, there are a few things wrong here.

The AR-15 and M16 are almost the same rifle. The only difference is the selector. The M16 has Safe/Semi/Burst modes while the AR-15 only has Safe/Semi. They both have fixed stocks and 20" barrels.

The M4 comes with a 16" barrel and a collapsible stock.

Now, there is an almost infinite variety of configurations these come in. The most common in the military is still the M16 (actually the M16A1 or M16A2). In the Air Force, the M4 is the most common amongst the Security Forces. At least it's what I see every day. Select units with special missions can have rifles or carbines in almost any configuration. Rest assured, the military will have a specific designation for each one, but I don't know what they are. So, while some units might have carbines with 14.5" barrels, they are not common. Also, they would be issued to units who are specifically going to urban areas.

Is a longer barrel more effective at longer range? The common wisdom says yes, but there are some who say not. I have been researching this very subject a lot lately. Suffice it to say, at distances of 500 meters and less, the difference between 20" and 16" barrels is nil.

That's the short version. If you want the long version, including supporting facts, start a new thread.

Rastoff, you are mistaken. The M4 comes with a 14.5" barrel. That is the specification for the barrel. And the M4 is now the most common, as both the Army and the Marines are issuing the M4 to infantry units.

Bad Request

 

[Rastoff]

OK. I'm mistaken.

 

[snm8510]

I was setting asides the full auto/burst capabilities and just looking at the basic common design aspects, but I understand where you're coming from.