Are Ponds a Viable Safety Zone if over run by a Forest Fire?

[flagman1776]

I was reading a report of a missing couple in one of the Forest Fires who intended to seek shelter in a nearby pond. I wondered if it was possible to survive that way. As a lay person, I wonder if even being completely submerged, the super heated air would be breathable.
I was able to find the following article. My prayers are with the family.
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf09512318/pdf09512318dpi300.pdf

 

[Golphin]

No idea and don't want to ever have to find out. It would be worth a try for sure. Depending on the size of the pond and how thick the forest up to the edge of the water was I would think.

 

[tlawler]

With scuba equipment, it might be doable. I'm not sure how warm the water might get, but probably not that hot since the heat is rising. Without an air source, I think you're right about the superheated air. Or else you would succumb to smoke inhalation. I think there have been firemen who have become trapped, buried themselves with their SCBA units and survived.

 

[delcrossv]

I was reading a report of a missing couple in one of the Forest Fires who intended to seek shelter in a nearby pond. I wondered if it was possible to survive that way. As a lay person, I wonder if even being completely submerged, the super heated air would be breathable.
I was able to find the following article. My prayers are with the family.
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf09512318/pdf09512318dpi300.pdf

I'd say no. Even if there was a downdraft of cooler air over a pond, the air would still be loaded with CO2.

You'd need a large lake for that to work.

The article talked about shelters. So just hanging in a pond wouldn't protect you from the IR from the fire without one.

I'm with Golphin, I'd rather not find out.

 

[tlawler]

I keep 80 and 20 CuFt Scuba tanks at hand.

I've always kept one of my 14cu.ft cave bailout bottles behind the seat of my truck "just in case".

 

[redlevel]

Maybe a 50/50 chance? Couple Married 55 Years Jump in Pool to Survive California Fire; She Dies in His Arms

 

[Chuck24]

How long can you hold your breath?

 

[Jon651]

30 years in fire-rescue and emergency services. Seeking shelter in water is relatively better than seeking shelter on land but there are more than a few caveats. Survivability will depend directly an two primary factors - the size of the body of water and the size/intensity of the fire, and with the water then the bigger the better. Unless you can get to the center of a very large body of water, a wildfire will use up a lot of the O2 and produce a lot of CO/CO2. Radiant heat is also a problem for whatever you have sticking above the water and the superheated gasses will make inhaling fatal regardless.

Of course, none of this matters if you can't swim.

The portable fire shelters ("baked potato bags") that the wildland fire guys use are a nightmare - but in theory you should have enough air inside the shelter to sustain you for long enough for the fire to blow by you. Emphasis on the word "theory". The moment you dunk your head underwater you don't have ANY air reserve to breathe/rebreathe so you will have less viable time underwater than inside a portable shelter.

Do you have a SCUBA bottle and regulator? Good, but how long does it take to get it out, assemble it, drag it down to the pond, turn it on, then get to the middle and fully submerged and not bob up? By the way, fire fronts have been known to travel at 60+ MPH so you had better be pretty fast...

The moral of this story is if you are primarily relying on a swimming pool or a pond to save your life in a wildfire, make other plans. Leave when they tell you to go; pay your insurance premiums. Don't risk your life for "stuff".

 

[pawngal]

During the Great Chicago Fire of 1871 many fled to the shores of Lake Michigan, my Great-grandparents included, my Grandmother was a baby.
They carried her in a basket to the lakeshore. Obviously, they survived but I have no idea how close they were to the actual fire or any other details.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In the PNW there was a wildfire in the 1880's or 90's that out ran galloping horses. A few loggers tried to survive in a small lake, they were boiled before the water was gone, then they baked.

In the atomic bomb blast at Hiroshima: Thousands that survived the blast died when they dove in the river. Close to ground zero the river boiled (down stream was hot for hours, for several miles down stream) Thousands more died when the water was cool enough to survive ,but were pushed under by thousands more diving in on top of them!

Ivan

 

[flagman1776]

My experience with SCUBA was long ago but an 80 @ 1 cfm is 80 minutes. If you could control your breathing with fire roaring over head, twice that. I could get an hour out of old 38 cf bail out tanks while playing in the shallows / surface. (They were so light, it was like diving with no tank at all.)
The article mentions breathing superheated moist air damaging the lungs. With a shelter or some other breathing means, it's possible. In a pool, you'd need to be able to stand up so you don't become exhausted and drown.

I don't have any answers but I have learned a bunch from this.

PS When I took the instructor's test (NAUI, Boston 1972), we gathered our gear in our arms and jumped of a boat. (with a safety diver) I had the regulator mounted and the air on before I hit the bottom.

 

[Absalom]

.....
The portable fire shelters ("baked potato bags") that the wildland fire guys use are a nightmare - but in theory you should have enough air inside the shelter to sustain you for long enough for the fire to blow by you. Emphasis on the word "theory". .....

Exactly. I've only trained briefly with the shelters, never active deployed them or even fought fires. But there are so many factors.

On the Thirtymile Fire in Washington, where a crew got trapped in a canyon, four firefighters under their individual deployed shelters died from superheated inhalation. Nearby, one firefighter and two tourists survived under one shelter with minor smoke inhalation and burns. It all depends on what exactly the fire does for how long exactly where you happen to be.

 

[Jon651]

PS When I took the instructor's test (NAUI, Boston 1972), we gathered our gear in our arms and jumped of a boat. (with a safety diver) I had the regulator mounted and the air on before I hit the bottom.

No, I'm not trying to be a Smart Alec. That old NAUI test was discontinued because it didn't teach any valuable skills or evaluate anything useful. Did you realize that what you did - work on your bottle and regulator - would have actually failed that test in later years? It was more important to know how to get kitted-out in a pitch-dark room or blindfolded than be able to do so underwater - the test you took was later used to evaluate a student's judgement to see what he/she would consider a priority.

In later instruction, the correct thing to do was go after your BC (Buoyancy Compensator or dive vest, for you non-divers out there), put it on, inflate it by mouth and float on the surface. The rest of your equipment could go straight down to Davey Jones' locker with no questions asked.

 

[BearBio]

Pulaski (an early forest ranger and inventor of the firefighting tool) had his men hide out in an old mine. He had to draw his pistol to keep them in. Their horses died of smoke inhalation.

From Wikipedia: "On August 20, 1910, Pulaski was credited with saving all but five of his 45-man crew during what is known as the "Great Idaho Fire," the "Great Fire of 1910" or the "Big Blowup." It had been unusually dry in 1910 and forest fires were rampant across the northern Rockies. Pulaski was supervising crews on the west fork of Placer Creek, about five miles south of Wallace when the fire suddenly broke out of control, overwhelming the crew.

Drawing on his knowledge of the area and of the dynamics of forest fires, Pulaski led his men to safety in an abandoned prospector's mine. After ordering his crew into the mine tunnel, he threatened to shoot with his pistol any man who left. Lying prone on the tunnel floor, all but five of the firefighters survived, though Pulaski himself was temporarily blinded by the fire and smoke. The two horses with them died from smoke inhalation. The mine entrance, now known as the Pulaski Tunnel, is listed on the National Register of Historic Places."

Read "Young men and Fire" about the Mann Gulch Fire in 1949. "Young Men and Fire is a non-fiction book written by Norman Maclean. It is an account of Norman Maclean's research of the Mann Gulch fire of 1949 and the 13 men who died there. The fire occurred in Mann Gulch in the Gates of the Mountains Wilderness on August 5." (from a review).

MacLean also wrote "A River Runs Through It" a biographical novel about growing up in early 20th Cenrury Montana.

 

[mtgianni]

I have a friend at a fire lab that studies mountain fires. He said a crown fire, just passing through the top branches melted an aluminum engine block in the junker under the tree. I would not expect great results.

 

[BearBio]

Remember: It is better than doing nothing!

I have several acquaintances who "took to the shelters" and survived. They said is is like being inside an oven and the sound is maddening. But they lived!

BTW: The Mann Gulch Fire was the basis of the movie "Red Skies of Montana"

 

[Absalom]

...
Read "Young men and Fire" about the Mann Gulch Fire in 1949. "Young Men and Fire is a non-fiction book written by Norman Maclean. It is an account of Norman Maclean's research of the Mann Gulch fire of 1949 and the 13 men who died there. The fire occurred in Mann Gulch in the Gates of the Mountains Wilderness on August 5." (from a review).

MacLean also wrote "A River Runs Through It" a biographical novel about growing up in early 20th Cenrury Montana.

MacLean's son John continued the writing tradition about wildland fire tragedies and is the best-known author on the topic.

"Fire on the Mountain" about the South Canyon Fire that killed 14 firefighters in 1994 is his most famous book. He also wrote "The Thirtymile Fire" about the one I mentioned above, and "The Esperanza Fire" about an arson fire in Southern California in 2006 that killed a crew of 5; this is also good as a crime investigation story. All highly recommended.

John Maclean Books

 

[Jon651]

Pulaski (an early forest ranger and inventor of the firefighting tool) had his men hide out in an old mine. He had to draw his pistol to keep them in. Their horses died of smoke inhalation.

Even without everything else that is both spectacular and heroic about this story, can you imagine having to go into a raging wildfire and considering A PISTOL as a needed and valuable piece of equipment ???

 

[Ackley1952]

If you are overrun by forest fire you Will go in the water doesn't matter will to survive kicks in

 

[flagman1776]

No, I'm not trying to be a Smart Alec. That old NAUI test was discontinued because it didn't teach any valuable skills or evaluate anything useful. Did you realize that what you did - work on your bottle and regulator - would have actually failed that test in later years? It was more important to know how to get kitted-out in a pitch-dark room or blindfolded than be able to do so underwater - the test you took was later used to evaluate a student's judgement to see what he/she would consider a priority.

In later instruction, the correct thing to do was go after your BC (Buoyancy Compensator or dive vest, for you non-divers out there), put it on, inflate it by mouth and float on the surface. The rest of your equipment could go straight down to Davey Jones' locker with no questions asked.

No, the test wasn't particularly useful, more of a demonstration. Once you had your air supply, you could take all day to put the rest of your gear on.