At what point does scarcity override condition ?

[bruce5781]

At what point does scarcity override condition. Although new to Smiths, I have collected Winchesters in the past and could pretty much tell when an old saddle gun was a worthwhile purchase even though it had no finish left. For example a Model 73 SRC with a factory rifle butt and single set trigger with lots of saddle wear on the forend.
But, vintage Smiths most probably didn't see the kind of that antique Winchesters did on a daily basis.

I find myself drawn to this little revolver, but it is said to have NO finish.

 

[Camster]

Plenty of old Smiths spent more time in a holster than the old Winchesters spent in a scabbard.
I'd be drawn to that old Smith 38 myself,but only because of the sights that it possesses.

 

[DCWilson]

I'd buy that one unless it was saddled with a delusional price. A four inch target M&P from before WWI? Sure. I'd like to know that the serial numbers matched on all parts because that could be a four inch barrel that was modified with a pinned target sight and attached to a frame that originally sported a longer barrel. Can you share the serial number? I'm guessing between 100000 and 200000 unless it's put together from pieces.

Don't believe the '20s era stocks.

At $450 or less I'd buy. At $1000 or more I'd walk. In between I'd haggle. Since it is a charming oddity, the presence or absence of a finish doesn't bother me.

 

[Skeetr57]

I don't buy many guns anymore, but when I was buying regularly, I considered rarity, condition and price on anything offered. That is why i own several guns that others may have turned their noses up at. An example is my .32 Automatic. Less than a thousand made. Mine is refinished, probably in chrome, and with non-original grips. Usually I would not look at a non factory refinish, especially in chrome, but I was unlikely to find one in good original condition that I could afford, so I bought it. It fills a gap in my accumulation until some thing better that is in my price range comes along.

 

[bruce5781]

Serial range is 124XXX. Price is reasonable. Odd thing is, if it were a re-blue, I wouldn't give it a second glance. As is, I find it appealing. The barrel markings look legit to me, but then, I know just enough at this point to be dangerous.

 

[mikepriwer]

That is definitely a scarce gun. The serial number would be very helpful in determining just how scarce it is. It looks like a Lyman bead front sight, which while not rare, is probably original to the gun. The gun is before about 1916, because it still has the patent-date roll markings on the side of the barrel. They were moved back to the top of the barrel sometime around 1916. 124XXX is about 1910, so the barrel is probably correct.

The gun looks to have more than zero finish. It may not be much, but it may clean up to be reasonably presentable. Or, there may be a lot of cold blue that will wash off during a cleaning.

While I'd want to see the gun, I'd be a buyer if it were offered to me !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[DCWilson]

So it's a Model of 1905/second change from about 1909, then. I agree that the barrel markings look right. Note the reference to the U.S. SERVICE chambering in addition to .38 S&W SPECIAL. I think the secondary cartridge notice disappeared about this time; it's seen on some 1905/first change guns but as I recall not usually on the second change specimens. Still, if there were a lot of premarked barrels around, the factory wouldn't throw them away.

Looks good to me. If you're happy with the price, buy it.

EDITED TO ADD: I see Mike posted while I was looking up some info. I thought he might like this one! And I see some marks on the side of the front sight that under enlargement can possibly be read as LYMAN, so I concur with his judgment about that.

 

[Watchdog]

At what point does scarcity override condition?

Speaking for myself, it depends entirely on the gun, and how bad I want that particular gun. Collectibility and scarcity really don't figure into my gun buying equation. I've bought some seriously finish-challenged guns. Never regretted it a bit. I'll probably do it again before summer's over.

 

[mikepriwer]

David

s/n 206306 is the latest 4-inch serial number I own with the patent-date roll markings on the side of the barrel. It was shipped in the latter part of 1913. For some reason I think that 1916 was the last year for this marking.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[glowe]

I feel there is more to value than condition and rarity. Demand is not always driven by something being rare. Just because something is rare, it does not automatically mean it has high value. Condition is also an inexact science when it comes to equating it to value. A pristine 32 Safety is maybe worth $350, while a pristine 38 M&P is worth $1000 today.

One thing this revolver has going against it is that it is a 38 M&P S&W. What I mean is that there were millions of this revolver made and therefore so many more 38 target guns are out there today than compared to let's say a 32-20 Target revolver. 38 M&P targets are not really not rare at all. I have some references that suggest a 4" 38 M&P could have been 2% of total production. 2% of a million pre-war revolvers still results in 20,000 targets probably made.

The 32-20, on the other hand would yield only 3000 4" targets made. Even with that small number they are not rare, and the value is still relatively low today. I only have a couple of what I would call rare revolvers. There may be only a few hundred short barrel Model 1 1/2 tip-ups made, but a worn example is worth only a few hundred dollars.

I remember the term "emotive" value from my working days and think it applies well to gun collecting. It is basically an undefinable basis for demand that can drive prices up for certain guns with certain attributes that have nothing to do with rarity or condition.

Your revolver should have been made between 1905 and 1908. The square butt revolver was the basis for the 1905 nomenclature and the "US SERVICE CTG " barrel stamping should have ceased by 1908. With the serial number you provide, 1908 would be likely very close to a ship date. I agree with David on what price I would pay for a target M&P with no finish and might actually limit myself to a number below $450.

 

[Tom K]

This old 1917 don't look like much. The finish has seen better days and the grips are pretty worn. As a run of the mill 1917 it wouldn't be particularly valuable.

But....

According to the SCSW there were maybe five made. Conversation with Jim Fisher indicates maybe 10-15.

So not the greatest condition but definitely scarce. Value? I dunno - I ain't selling it anytime soon.

 

[BigBill]

"RARE" with target sights. Most of these pre war revolvers the prices are all over the place. Have you checked the online prices?

 

[bruce5781]

I want to thank y'all for enabling me in this decision. $475 shipped & transfered.

 

[bruce5781]

This old 1917 don't look like much. The finish has seen better days and the grips are pretty worn. As a run of the mill 1917 it wouldn't be particularly valuable.

But....

According to the SCSW there were maybe five made. Conversation with Jim Fisher indicates maybe 10-15.

So not the greatest condition but definitely scarce. Value? I dunno - I ain't selling it anytime soon.

I would give that one lots of love. Good honest wear does not deter me. Its the target sights that float my boat.

 

[mikepriwer]

$475 is a very good price for the gun.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[DCWilson]

I want to thank y'all for enabling me in this decision. $475 shipped & transfered.

Excellent.

 

[Modified]

I want to thank y'all for enabling me in this decision. $475 shipped & transfered.

You did just fine I think.

One of the things about the gun is that it's just charismatic, it's easily worth what you paid for it just because so many of us would like to have it.

 

[bruce5781]

Just a couple more shots till I get it in hand.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
Bruce

 

[Tom K]

I want to thank y'all for enabling me in this decision. $475 shipped & transfered.

You did well, brother. I'd have bought it for that.

 

[rwsmith]

What only counts to me.....

....only mechanical condition counts to me as I'm a shooter rather than a collector.