Attacked by Pitbull.. What would you do?

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I am glad to hear that you are such a fearless warrior when it comes to dogs. Not everyone is.

No, sir. High drag, low speed "operator" here. I missed out on the tactical escalator mall ninja training course. :D

I'm just a dog owner who's had a lot of experience with dogs and just wanted to point out the folly of mass hysteria and the "ALL pibulls r BAD!!!!1!" screed.

Just think about it for a minute... One nutjob shoots up a school and suddenly, ALL firearm owners are potential mass murders just waiting for a "trigger." Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? But yet, we somehow drop that same standard of logic when judging certain dogs... Why is that? :confused:

I would also recommend taking news stories of "pit bull attacks" with a grain of salt for the same reason why the mass media maliciously embellishes any crime committed with a firearm.

And that's all I've got to say about that.
 
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These are International Statistics

No, sir. High drag, low speed "operator" here. I missed out on the tactical escalator mall ninja training course. :D

I'm just a dog owner who's had a lot of experience with dogs and just wanted to point out the folly of mass hysteria and the "ALL pibulls r BAD!!!!1!" screed.

Just think about it for a minute... One nutjob shoots up a school and suddenly, ALL firearm owners are potential mass murders just waiting for a "trigger." Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? But yet, we somehow drop that same standard of logic when judging certain dogs... Why is that? :confused:

I would also recommend taking news stories of "pit bull attacks" with a grain of salt for the same reason why the mass media maliciously embellishes any crime committed with a firearm.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

Provide references and don't infer. Look at post 216. These are data and statistical analysis of Pit bull attacks in the U.S. and Canada during a very long period of time. Guess what, it's not media, just two countries! Attacks by these animals far exceed any other breed of dog. So what are you talking about?
 
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Provide references and don't infer. Look at post 216. These are data and statistical analysis of Pit bull attacks in the U.S. and Canada during a very long period of time. Guess what, it's not media, just two countries! Attacks by these animals far exceed any other breed of dog. So what are you talking about?

So where are YOUR references? ;)
 
References

So where are YOUR references? ;)

Are they not in post #216? It clearly states National Geographic and in a report called Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada September 1982 to December 31, 2014. I encourage you to reference them.
 
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Provide references and don't infer. Look at post 216.

Your "reference" states the following:

"Reports are logged as received... Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts since 1982..." [Emphasis Mine]

This is not a peer-reviewed scientific study, but rather a tabulation of media reports.

Also, shifting your burden of proof onto me will not change that simple fact. Try again. ;)

These are data and statistical analysis of Pit bull attacks in the U.S. and Canada during a very long period of time. Guess what, it's not media, just two countries! Attacks by these animals far exceed any other breed of dog. So what are you talking about?

So go ahead and provide us with this "data" and "statistical analysis" that proves your point. Fair warning, though. I -will- call you out on junk science masquerading as "studies." :D
 
So where are YOUR references? ;)

His current "references" are little more than a tabulation of media reports. (Source)

I seem to recall another "study" on "stopping power" carried out in a similar manner that consisted of tabulating coroner's reports by a certain Mssrs. Marshall and Sanow. ;)
 
CoMF

Your "reference" states the following:

"Reports are logged as received... Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts since 1982..." [Emphasis Mine]

This is not a peer-reviewed scientific study, but rather a tabulation of media reports.

Also, shifting your burden of proof onto me will not change that simple fact. Try again. ;

So go ahead and provide us with this "data" and "statistical analysis" that proves your point. Fair warning, though. I -will- call you out on junk science masquerading as "studies." :D

Ok, I'll play along but I challenge you to review said reference entirely and read the footnotes as well. Can you derive a contrary source? Junk science? It doesn't take a geneticist to research the facts on your own and provide your independent source before you attempt to critique mine. BTW, this is not a study it is a retrospective analysis.
http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/dog-attack-deaths-maimings-merritt-clifton-2014.pdf
 
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I don't trust it, due to an actual encounter in which it failed.

Ok, if it does you can further justify the use of deadly force. If based on your experience that pepper spray gas failed you in the past then you can justify bypassing it and going straight to deadly force. Preclusion. Since most scenarios differ, it's still nice to have an less lethal option and it's easily carried.
 
I hope I'd react...

I hope that I'd react like you did. You kept your dog protected and showed restraint when the dog broke off the attack. I'm REALLY surprised that the dog obeyed the owner and you didn't have to take further action with the gun, but reported the problem to the right people.
 
Ok, I'll play along but I challenge you to review said reference entirely and read the footnotes as well.

The polemic indictments of Mr. Clifton do not "footnotes" make. There are no references to peer-reviewed scientific studies validating his conclusions. No cross references to academic materials. A lot of "sizzle," but no "steak" as it were.

Try harder. ;)


Can you derive a contrary source? Junk science? It doesn't take a geneticist to research the facts on your own and provide your independent source before you attempt to critique mine.:cool:

Sorry, but you seem to misunderstand how this works. :D

You provided what amounts to an opinion piece based upon media reports of questionable verity, and I drew attention to that. I also asked you to provide more convincing evidence. Neither of these things require "counter evidence" of any sort on my behalf.

Again, try harder.


Here are some interesting excerpts from that website:

"DogsBite.org is a public education website about dangerous dog breeds, chiefly pit bulls."

As Arty Johnson would say, "Veeeery interestink!" :D Let's read on, shall we?

Policies we support



  1. Pit bull ban
    A breed ban is the most proactive policy that can be undertaken concerning the pit bull problem. A ban saves the most human lives by preventing attacks before they occur. By prohibiting pit bull breeding, a ban also saves countless pit bulls from systematic euthanasia. Cities as large as Denver and Miami have adopted pit bull bans. Pawtucket recently released data showing the dramatic success of their ban.
  2. Mandatory spay/neuter
    Cities and animal advocates that truly seek to address the overpopulation of unwanted pit bulls must enact a mandatory pit bull sterilization policy. In 2014, over 700,00 pit bulls were projected for euthanasia by Animals 24-7.4 San Francisco's pit bull sterilization ordinance has produced strong results by reducing euthanasia rates and damaging bites.5 More California cities and counties have followed suit.
  3. Identification and liability insurance
    Breed-specific legislation regarding pit bulls should always have the inclusion of mandatory micro-chipping and liability insurance, we recommend $300,000 at minimum. If a dog is unidentifiable, its owner cannot be identified for civil or criminal recourse. If an owner holds insufficient levels of liability insurance, the victim’s medical bills, loss of income and rehabilitation expenses cannot be recovered.
  4. Prohibit felons from ownership
    Pit bulls were selectively bred for an activity that is now a felony in all 50 states: dogfighting. Pit bulls are the "chosen" breed for drug dealers, gang members and other violent offenders and as such, make up the vast majority of dogs shot by police officers.6 Convicted felons do not have the right to own a firearm, nor should they have a right to own a dog breed easily deployed as a "deadly weapon."
As we can plainly see, this "source" clearly doesn't have any ulterior motives that could possibly intoduce any bias into their "data."

In other words, could you please cite sources other than "pibulls r EEEEEEEEEEVIL!!!!!1!" echo chambers? :cool:

"Hey Rocky! Watch me pull 'facts' out of thin air!"

"But that trick NEVER works, Bullwinkle!"

:D
 
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I hope you enjoy it when...

Ok, if it does you can further justify the use of deadly force. If based on your experience that pepper spray gas failed you in the past then you can justify bypassing it and going straight to deadly force. Preclusion. Since most scenarios differ, it's still nice to have an less lethal option and it's easily carried.

The wind blows it straight into your eyes. Just sayin'
 
Holy cats! Or should I say "Holy dogs!" This thread has been going on for 5 months, since May 3rd. My post is #15 and I'm still getting "likes" on it, I think it's up to 28. Never got that many on any other post, not even close.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
That's why it's always nice to carry a less than lethal option, e.g., pepper spray.
I'm not Batman and I don't wear a utility belt.

I carry enough stuff as it is, too much some times. There's a limit. Mine is wallet, checkbook, cell phone (sometimes two) and a gun.
 
CoMF

The polemic indictments of Mr. Clifton do not "footnotes" make. There are no references to peer-reviewed scientific studies validating his conclusions. No cross references to academic materials. A lot of "sizzle," but no "steak" as it were.

Try harder. ;)




Sorry, but you seem to misunderstand how this works. :D

You provided what amounts to an opinion piece based upon media reports of questionable verity, and I drew attention to that. I also asked you to provide more convincing evidence. Neither of these things require "counter evidence" of any sort on my behalf.

Again, try harder.



Here are some interesting excerpts from that website:

"DogsBite.org is a public education website about dangerous dog breeds, chiefly pit bulls."

As Arty Johnson would say, "Veeeery interestink!" :D Let's read on, shall we?

Policies we support



  1. Pit bull ban
    A breed ban is the most proactive policy that can be undertaken concerning the pit bull problem. A ban saves the most human lives by preventing attacks before they occur. By prohibiting pit bull breeding, a ban also saves countless pit bulls from systematic euthanasia. Cities as large as Denver and Miami have adopted pit bull bans. Pawtucket recently released data showing the dramatic success of their ban.
  2. Mandatory spay/neuter
    Cities and animal advocates that truly seek to address the overpopulation of unwanted pit bulls must enact a mandatory pit bull sterilization policy. In 2014, over 700,00 pit bulls were projected for euthanasia by Animals 24-7.4 San Francisco's pit bull sterilization ordinance has produced strong results by reducing euthanasia rates and damaging bites.5 More California cities and counties have followed suit.
  3. Identification and liability insurance
    Breed-specific legislation regarding pit bulls should always have the inclusion of mandatory micro-chipping and liability insurance, we recommend $300,000 at minimum. If a dog is unidentifiable, its owner cannot be identified for civil or criminal recourse. If an owner holds insufficient levels of liability insurance, the victim’s medical bills, loss of income and rehabilitation expenses cannot be recovered.
  4. Prohibit felons from ownership
    Pit bulls were selectively bred for an activity that is now a felony in all 50 states: dogfighting. Pit bulls are the "chosen" breed for drug dealers, gang members and other violent offenders and as such, make up the vast majority of dogs shot by police officers.6 Convicted felons do not have the right to own a firearm, nor should they have a right to own a dog breed easily deployed as a "deadly weapon."
As we can plainly see, this "source" clearly doesn't have any ulterior motives that could possibly intoduce any bias into their "data."

In other words, could you please cite sources other than "pibulls r EEEEEEEEEEVIL!!!!!1!" echo chambers? :cool:

"Hey Rocky! Watch me pull 'facts' out of thin air!"

"But that trick NEVER works, Bullwinkle!"

:D

A 1991 study found that 94% of attacks on children by pit bulls were unprovoked, compared to 43% for other breeds.

A 5-year (1989–94) review of fatal dog attacks in the U.S. determined that pit bulls and pit bull mixed breeds were implicated in 24 (29%) of the 84 deaths in which breed was recorded.

A 20-year (1979–1998) study by the American Veterinary Medical Association into fatal dog attacks on humans concluded that "fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs).

A 15-year (1991–2005) review of dog attack fatalities investigated by the Kentucky Medical Examiner determined that pit bulls were implicated in 5 of the 11 fatal attacks (45%).

A five-year (2001–05) review of dog attack victims admitted to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia determined that pit bull terriers were implicated in more than half of the bites where breed was identified. Of the 269 patients where breed was identified, 137 (51%) were attacked by pit bulls.

A medical literature review of animal-related fatalities, citing the 1979-1988 JAMA study and 1991–2005 Kentucky Medical Examiner study, reported that pit bulls and pit bull cross-breeds were involved in 42–45% of dog attacks, and that unneutered male dogs were the most likely to bites. Fatalities were most often reported when children were attacked, with 70% of victims being under the age of 10.

I could tell you that the sky was blue but you probably would not believe that either.
 
My cousin had a pit bull that was well trained and a great dog. she died and he got a shelter pit bull 3 years old. Neighbor boy comes to his door with a friend. Dog knows the neighbor boy but not the friend. Dog bites friend. Cousin pays $800 for medical and is sweating a law suit. Cousin decides to keep dog. Cousin is a smart guy but won't get rid of dog.
 
A 1991 study found that 94% of attacks on children by pit bulls were unprovoked, compared to 43% for other breeds.

A 5-year (1989–94) review of fatal dog attacks in the U.S. determined that pit bulls and pit bull mixed breeds were implicated in 24 (29%) of the 84 deaths in which breed was recorded.

A 20-year (1979–1998) study by the American Veterinary Medical Association into fatal dog attacks on humans concluded that "fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs).

A 15-year (1991–2005) review of dog attack fatalities investigated by the Kentucky Medical Examiner determined that pit bulls were implicated in 5 of the 11 fatal attacks (45%).

A five-year (2001–05) review of dog attack victims admitted to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia determined that pit bull terriers were implicated in more than half of the bites where breed was identified. Of the 269 patients where breed was identified, 137 (51%) were attacked by pit bulls.

A medical literature review of animal-related fatalities, citing the 1979-1988 JAMA study and 1991–2005 Kentucky Medical Examiner study, reported that pit bulls and pit bull cross-breeds were involved in 42–45% of dog attacks, and that unneutered male dogs were the most likely to bites. Fatalities were most often reported when children were attacked, with 70% of victims being under the age of 10.

I could tell you that the sky was blue but you probably would not believe that either.

A list of sources and reference data would be nice. I've been a trainer and breeder of American Pitbull Terriers for more than 35 years. During this time I've investigated rumors of various reports like these. Inevitably, the data turns out to be skewered, or falsely contrived.

You know, just like the fictitious gun data the Brady Bunch and various Washington politicians will so often send out to their followers and the media.

With the exception of the comments about the children in Philadelphia (Which is a hellhole of: crime, urban blight, welfare, and social decay.) I don't believe any of the above statements to be valid.

I am willing, however, to examine the sources behind the posted remarks. Thanks! :)
 
Arc Angel

A list of sources and reference data would be nice. I've been a trainer and breeder of American Pitbull Terriers for more than 35 years. During this time I've investigated rumors of various reports like these. Inevitably, the data turns out to be skewered, or falsely contrived.

You know, just like the fictitious gun data the Brady Bunch and various Washington politicians will so often send out to their followers and the media.

With the exception of the comments about the children in Philadelphia (Which is a hellhole of: crime, urban blight, welfare, and social decay.) I don't believe any of the above statements to be valid.

I am willing, however, to examine the sources behind the posted remarks. Thanks! :)

Gladly, here they are:

Sacks, Jeffrey J.; Lockwood, Randall; Hornreicht, Janet; Sattin, Richard W. (1996). "Fatal Dog Attacks, 1989–1994". Pediatrics (American Academy of Pediatrics) 97 (6): 891–895. PMID 8657532.

JAVMA (15 September 2000), Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998 (PDF), Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association

Shields, Lisa B. E.; Bernstein, Mark L.; Hunsaker, John C.; Stewart, Donna M. (2009). "Dog Bite-Related Fatalities: A 15-Year Review of Kentucky Medical Examiner Cases". American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology (Lippincott Williams & Wilkins) 30 (3): 223–230. doi:10.1097/PAF.0b013e3181a5e558.

Bini, John K.; Cohn, Stephen M.; Acosta, Shirley M.; McFarland, Marilyn J.; Muir, Mark T.; Michalek, Joel E. (2011). "Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs". Annals of Surgery (Lippincott Williams & Wilkins) 253 (4): 791–797. doi:10.1097/SLA.0b013e318211cd68.

Kaye, Alison E.; Belz, Jessica M.; Kirschner, Richard E. (2009). "Pediatric Dog Bite Injuries: A 5-Year Review of the Experience at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia". Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery (American Society of Plastic Surgeons) 124 (2): 551–558. doi:10.1097/PRS.0b013e3181addad9.

Bury, Danielle; Langlois, Neil; Byard, Roger W. (2012). "Animal-Related Fatalities—Part I: Characteristic Autopsy Findings and Variable Causes of Death Associated with Blunt and Sharp Trauma". Journal of Forensic Sciences (American Academy of Forensic Sciences) 57 (2): 370–374. doi:10.1111/j.1556-4029.2011.01921.x.
 
Hey, Gulfecho. I see your Google-fu is strong. :D

Did you, perhaps, cut and paste "sources" from this forum?

A 1991 study found that 94% of attacks on children by pit bulls were unprovoked, compared to 43% for other breeds.

Doesn't tell the whole story. Allow me to provide the context from the abstract that pit bull restrictionists seem to have difficulty including.

A total of 168 children were enrolled; the mean age was 8 years. Males outnumbered females 1.5:1. Most (61%) injuries occurred in or around the home and involved dogs known to the patient (77%). Types of injuries included abrasions (33%), punctures (29%), and lacerations (38%). Thirteen bites had associated complications; nine developed infection. Twelve (7%) children required admission to the hospital. More than 12 different purebreeds or crossbreeds were identified as perpetrators, including German shepherds (n = 35), pit bulls (n = 33), rottweilers (n = 9), and Dobermans (n = 7). Most (54%) animals were contained (ie, leashed, fenced, in-house) at the time of injury. Fewer (46%) were provoked prior to biting. Significantly more pit bull injuries (94% vs 43%, P < .001) were the consequence of unprovoked attacks and involved freely roaming animals (67% vs 41%, P < .01). (Source)
So what can we gather from this context? Only 7% of the study group required inpatient care (i.e. major corrective surgery), and the "unprovoked attacks" involved freely roaming animals.

What it doesn't tell us is how many of the "Pit Bull attacks" required inpatient care, how many of them involved dogs known to the patient, and so on. Unfortunately, the actual study is behind a paywall, so these questions are left unanswered.

What is more telling, however, is the conclusion reached by the study:

It is recommended that families with young children be the target of pet safety education and that measures be sought that would lead to early identification of a potentially dangerous dog and restrict ownership.

What? No breed-specific legislation? No mandatory microchipping and carrying of insurance? Do they not care for the children?! :eek:

Consequentially, this perfectly illustrates the difference between respected members of the scientific community and nutjob restrictionists. The former realizes that no one number tells the whole story, where the latter will "cherry pick" numbers that support their agendas while diminishing or outright ignoring the others. (See: Confirmation Bias)

A medical literature review of animal-related fatalities, citing the 1979-1988 JAMA study... reported that pit bulls and pit bull cross-breeds were involved in 42–45% of dog attacks

You mean this study which states the following in its abstract?

The authors of this study gathered information concerning the number of people killed by dog bites in the US from 1979 through 1988 and the breeds of dogs involved. Data were obtained from the National Center for Health Statistics and a computer search of news stories. In the ten-year period, 157 people died, 70 percent of whom were children under age ten. Infants were almost 370 times as likely to die compared to adults aged 30-49. Pit bulls were responsible for 42 of 101 deaths for which dog breed was known, which was three times the rate for German shepherds, the second most common breed involved. The increase in pit bull attacks was quite dramatic, from 20 percent of deaths in 1979-1980 to 62 percent in 1987-1988. The pit bulls were almost twice as likely to be strays than other breeds of dogs. While recent publicity may have overemphasized the involvement of pit bulls, the authors maintained that pit bulls appeared to inflict 42 percent of the fatal injuries. Since well under 42 percent of dogs in the US are pit bulls, they are clearly a real danger.

Notice there's that tabulation of news stories, again. :rolleyes: I'll hazard a guess that the Media and not the National Center for Health Statistics was the source of the "42%" figure.

Still, considering the "danger" involved, "something must be done" about those dangerous Pit Bulls RIGHT NOW! What do the authors suggest?!

To prevent dog bites, the authors recommend tighter control of strays and public education aimed at dog owners and potential victims. Special attention should be given to informing parents that infants left alone with a dog could be fatally injured.

Again, this is the difference between respected members of the scientific community and activists.

Look, Gulfecho... So far, you've cited anti-Pit Bull organizations with "goals" that sound like something right out of the Everytown for Gun Safety playbook, except with "guns" replaced by "Pit Bulls." You've also cited "sources" posted on another forum that omit signifigant context and cherry-pick numbers that support the premise. So yeah, you could tell me the sky was blue and I'd be very skeptical of you. I don't put much stock in the statements of people who resort to intellectual dishonesty.
 
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