Awful Precision - Advice requested

[sithlord]

I've had a M&P 15 (flattop - VTAC 2 model) for about 2 years. I've never felt that it had any sort of precision, regardless of the sights that I've put on it, but shame on me for not testing it until today (I don't usually shoot at paper).

I'm shooting at 100 yards or less. I've used mostly red dots of varying MOAs, which have served me very well with my 15-22 (I regularly shoot at 4" clay pigeons from 100 yds with a 4MOA RDS on it).

So today, I took it to the range. I haven't shot it in a while (I've put a 9" 300 BLK on it and take that most times, now; yes, the lower has been SBR'd). I took with me 20 rounds of factory (Independence 55gr), and 60 rounds of handloads, with 3x different charges, but same projectiles (55gr).

I used a 3-9x scope (on 9x), and shot from a bipod on a table.

The 'best' 5 shot grouping was pretty awful IMHO - 5 inches or more (no pictures, because its almost embarrasing). I shot 8 5-shot groups (2 for each type of ammo) and there was no dicernable difference between the groups.

I'm looking for suggestions on what to check or how to proceed; I'm open to any and all recommendations. The only modifications performed have been to install JP Yellow trigger springs; the hammer springs are original (I was getting light strikes with the yellow hammer springs). The VTAC shipped with a Geiselle single stage trigger.

I won't be able to go out to the range anytime soon to test any tweaks, but will as soon as I can.

TIA for any advice!

 

[Jiman]

Are you shooting 223 or 556 ammo through your rifle? 5"+ at100 yds and less, ammo seems like less of an issue...especially with factory ammo, but it's possible.

Do you have a completely different 300BLK upper or did you do a barrel swap to your VTAC upper? If you did a barrel swap that could be the issue. Are you shooting suppressed (baffle strikes)?

Is it possible that your optics/rings are off or not torqued down correctly? Shooting with iron sights might shed some light on that but that might not be possible depending your setup.

Last is operator error. Some folks have a more difficult time shooting at increased magnification. If you're used to shooting red dots, maybe decrease the mag. to 3-5X and see what you get and try shooting from a bag instead of a bi-pod.

 

[mojave30cal]

I really like the AR-15 platform, and enjoy shooting my "retro"
M16A1 clone rifles, as well as my Colt Socom 1 M4A1 carbine.
I'm no expert or ex-commando, but your M&P-15 SBR with the
9 inch barrel would be used for close in work. If you wanted to
reach out to 100 yds. or so, a longer barrel would be needed.
Your M&P is a battle rifle, not a target rifle. Have you started
shooting your SBR at say 7 yds., then 15 yds., then 25 yds.
to see at what distance your groupings start to wander?

When I started to shoot my Vietnam era "retro" rifles with the
20 inch Colt 1X12 pencil barrels, I started at 15 yds. then 25yds.,50 yds., 75 yds. etc. I used American Eagle 55 gr. FMJ
and Lake City 55 gr. FMJ ammo. I found that my groupings
were better with the LC ammo out to 50 yds., then the group-
ins started to wander at 75 and 100 yds. like yours. And I was
using the iron sights on the rifle with a bench rest. In the
scheme of things, 50 yds. doesn't sound like much, but at least
I know the limits of my retro rifles. They are battle rifles, so
I don't expect target rifle accuracy. They were built to be fun
rifles to shoot.

I hope this can be of some help to you.

 

[sithlord]

Are you shooting 223 or 556 ammo through your rifle? 5"+ at100 yds and less, ammo seems like less of an issue...especially with factory ammo, but it's possible.

Do you have a completely different 300BLK upper or did you do a barrel swap to your VTAC upper? If you did a barrel swap that could be the issue. Are you shooting suppressed (baffle strikes)?

Is it possible that your optics/rings are off or not torqued down correctly? Shooting with iron sights might shed some light on that but that might not be possible depending your setup.

Last is operator error. Some folks have a more difficult time shooting at increased magnification. If you're used to shooting red dots, maybe decrease the mag. to 3-5X and see what you get and try shooting from a bag instead of a bi-pod.

Independence ammo is, I relieve, 556. As far as my reloads, I'm under max load, so I'm not sure it would classify as either pressure wise), but I'm using 223 dies.

The 300 blackout is a completely separate upper.

I'm not shooting suppressed with the 223/556 (yet). I have a dpms linear comp, but do not see any strike marks on the inside.

The scope may certainly be the issue; I can try again with irons and/or a rds. Since those are 4moa or worse, results may not reliably comparable. But I will be happy to shoot another set with scope, irons and rds.

 

[Rastoff]

Which upper was giving you the poor groups? Original or the 300 BLK? Or was it both?

Shooting off a rest or off hand?

 

[Bat Guano]

I spent a fair amount of time last summer working with my 1:8 twist carbine at 100 and 200 yards with M193 equivalent (55 gr. FMJBT) . 3X optic and Geissele trigger. I had previously shot it in bipod prone and done poorly. Poorly enough to tick me off and make me wonder if I had loaded up a considerable amount of bad ammo.

It took a while to determine what was going to work and what wasn't. I quit fooling with the bipod which hopped all over and just used a pack or bedroll as a forearm rest. Wind here is almost always an issue, but I'm used to it in .30 caliber. 5.56 is much more sensitive; but you deal with it.

Short version is that it was--surprise, surprise--all me. It comes right back to basics, particularly trigger control and letoff. The better I did on those--and I had gotten sloppy--the better the ammo shot...After a while I had to admit that my blasting ammo was good for 1.5 MOA out to 200, and sometimes a bit better than that. Most of my shooting was prone rest, some offhand, and some (stiff) sitting. By the end of the summer I was calling my shots, getting hits as called, and having fun. Is it work? Sure is.

I also worked out with the similarly set up 15-22, doing more offhand work with that.

There really are no shortcuts, and the carbines are like a J frame revolver--they magnify your mistakes because they are so short and light. You might look for a good high power rifle shooting book as the principles apply across the board. But it ALWAYS comes back to the quality of your trigger pull and how good your follow through is. All else is details.

 

[sithlord]

Which upper was giving you the poor groups? Original or the 300 BLK? Or was it both?

Shooting off a rest or off hand?

Original 5.56 NATO 1/8 5r vtac barrel shooting off a bipod.

The loads I've shot with the 300 blk are in the 1.5-3 moa range off a bipod, which is good enough for the plinking I'm doing.

I'm happy to accept that it's the shooter, but it wouldn't explain the precision I get with the blk and the 15-22. And if a 223/556 is unforgiving, a 22 going transonic would be worse, right?

 

[MichiganScott]

You have a couple of different issues. The first is you are trying for accuracy with a SBR in 300 Blackout. The following is a post from Savage.

"Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
Savage 300 AAC Blackout cancelled
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation."

The 5.56 is a different matter. 55 grain FMJ projectiles are built for combat accuracy. IIRC, that standard is about 3.5-4 MOA. Buy some expensive match ammunition and see how it shoots. Then have someone else shoot the rifle. If the groups are still huge then you have a barrel problem.

 

[sithlord]

You have a couple of different issues. The first is you are trying for accuracy with a SBR in 300 Blackout. The following is a post from Savage.

"Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
Savage 300 AAC Blackout cancelled
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation."

The 5.56 is a different matter. 55 grain FMJ projectiles are built for combat accuracy. IIRC, that standard is about 3.5-4 MOA. Buy some expensive match ammunition and see how it shoots. Then have someone else shoot the rifle. If the groups are still huge then you have a barrel problem.

Thanks! I will try heavier bullets when I get a chance. But I've seen precise 5-shot groups with 55gr sp pills.

Btw, I have no issue with subs or supers through my 300 BO. Not single hole precision, but good enough for me. Hate on the 300 all you want, IMHO, it's a great round, kool aid aside.

 

[WR Moore]

As someone else noted, ball equivilent ammunition really isn't going to give you really good groups.....depending upon what you consider good.
Three inches at 100 yards is certainly possible.

I would check the scope mounts & rings to make sure the scope isn't wandering. This assumes the scope itself is good, which may be in error.

As someone else also noted, it is possible to screw up your groups even with sandbags. The issue is probably your technique.

 

[vipermd]

I would check base, rings, clean the barrel well with a good copper cleaner. You are getting good accuracy out of the 300BLK, ( same trigger) so it prob is not your trigger or technique. Bipod and sandbag will often hit to different POI, so if you were not switching between targets it should not be the problem. What kind of crosshairs, plain lines are fine, target dots, bdc with circles are less precise. What kind of target? When I am looking for precision with a new gun I like to use the straight liness to remove one more variable. Ammo- uniformity in your hand loads? Try them again, but hole in hole accuracy is difficult with 55 gr ball, whether it is coming out of a carbine or 20" match, bull barrel. They make a great plinking load, and will keep the shots in a 10" X 10" torso @200 yds. If the 55's do not improve I would move up to 62 for precision. Let us know how it turns out. Be Safe,

 

[Arik]

I'd get rid of the bipod.

Also I shoot avg AKs with crappy ammo and get 3-4 moa without any dots ...the AR should do much better

 

[ironhead7544]

Since the other uppers give good accuracy, I would check the barrel. Make sure it is not badly fouled. Also check the muzzle for nicks. Could just be a bad barrel. Also, the bipod can cause problems. Try it off sandbags.

I have found the 300 Blackout accurate with a proper load. Like any cartridge, you may have to work up a load for your individual piece.

 

[Rastoff]

El cheapo loads from a standard AR should yield 2MOA groups or better. I'm getting just over 1MOA using Wolf Gold loads and I have a super cheap barrel.

 

[Culina]

+1 on looking for a mechanical issue. The only .223 I had that shot that bad was a stainless mini 14