"Barn" find - old warhorses and a "tommy gun"

[cmansguns]

Ya gotta love the kids and their friends! My oldest son now in his mid-40's called and asked if I remembered his best friend from high school and later same college sharing an apartment. I said sure and I remembered his dad too who around 1992 or so stuffed a monster Chevy big block into a 1987 Chevy small pickup with such finesse that it made the cover of Hot Rod magazine.

So...years go by, my son's friend's dad passed many years ago and grandkids, careers, mortgages, life keep on going.

Anyway...son says "hey dad, my friend has some guns that his dad had and they are just sitting in the attic, do you suppose if we brought them over you could take a look and maybe estimate some value, & check em over?"

I said sure come on over next Sunday afternoon, bring the guns and any accessories, mags, holsters, and any paperwork that he may have. If you can please have him send me some cell phone pics so I can get started on research, etc.

Got some pics last night. Really looking forward to Sunday afternoon.

I've got no issues assessing the Colt 1911, or the S&W Model 1917 45, or the S&W BSR 38.....but the Eagle "tommy gun" semi auto 45ACP is a new one on me. Turns out they were made between 1964 and 1968 by a man in Stratford CT, but went bankrupt when the factory in NE PA burned down. Interesting because quicky research (INet of all places) indicates that the gun can fire full auto if the safety is held down yet it was grandfathered in before the 68 GCA so is BATF legal? I don't put much faith in the Internet so some definite in depth research will be in order, but do any of you guys out there remember this gun before its successors took over in late 69?

I don't know if my son's friend will be looking to sell as the guns were his dad's but I want to do my best to accurately appraise based on condition. The M1917 has a broken hammer spur, are these available in original, not repop's?

Anyway....enjoy some old treasure eye-candy for this morning. I'll update after I see them in person and get some more pics.

One he couldn't get pics of cause it's buried under some stuff in his attic is rumored to be an original 1865 Spencer carbine in unknown condition......as Schultz used to say " VERRRRRY INTERESTING"

 

[dmthomp32]

I have nothing to add other than I have dreams about barn finds like this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alpo]

"made before GCA68, so it was grandfathered" is nonsense. ATF does not care when it was made. ATF does not care what it was designed to do. If it will fire two or more shots with one pull of the trigger, it is a machine gun, and needs to have paperwork. If you do not have paperwork for the machine gun, you are in possession of contraband which will get you 10 years in club Fed with a $250,000 fine.


I believe that if the gun would actually fire full auto by holding the safety down - either by intentional design or buy a design flaw - ATF would be aware of it by now, and they would not allow them to be sold like any other gun. The fact that they apparently can be sold like any normal gun leaves me to believe that your internet research about them shooting full auto is incorrect.


What I would do (the suggestion of working the action by hand with no ammunition in the gun is not bad, but there are several guns that will not work without the recoil of the first shot - think single trigger double barrel shotgun - so without there actually being recoil that might not work) I would load two rounds in the magazine, chamber the first round, and while holding the safety down pull the trigger. If it fired both rounds, I would then suggest getting in touch with ATF and telling them that you had just come in possession of an unpapered machine gun, and what did they want you to do with it.

 

[TheHobbyist]

Colt appears to be from 1918 based on serial number. That's a nice one.

 

[diyj98]

"made before GCA68, so it was grandfathered" is nonsense. ATF does not care when it was made.

True. Three times I've been offered NFA items pre 1968 with no paperwork, but there's no way to own them legally now. One was an M1 carbine, but the receiver was marked "M2". Even though it was now a semi auto, the ATF said "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" and told me it would be illegal to own without being previously registered.

 

[PALADIN85020]

The 1911 pistol has been Parkerized at some point, possibly during an arsenal overhaul, as many were during the WWII period. Look for an arsenal stamp (such as "AA" for Augusta Arsenal) on the left side of the frame. These were applied at the time of the overhaul. If such a marking is not present, it was Parkerized privately.

The grips on the 1917 are not factory - the originals were smooth with no checkering.

As for the "Tommy Gun," I remember them, but I don't recall any mention of them being able to fire full auto. Please do the suggested test and then act accordingly.

Great finds!

John

 

[gwpercle]

About 1957 my Dad was helping a friend install electrical lines in his house for a new washer and dryer (my Dad was electrician) Myself and the friends little boy ...we were both about 9 - 10 years old ... were sent outside to "play" ...we were getting in the way .
In the garage I found a gun under a tarp ... I knew it was a firearm but it didn't look like anything I had ever seen . We inspected it very closely , handle on top , ribbed barrel , flash hider , bi-pod ...funny writing and stamped markings on it
I never forgot what it looked like . Years later I discovered what it was and saw another , in New Orleans Louisiana at the WWII Musem ...
It was in a display of WWII Japanese small arms ... A Type 96 Light Machine Gun ... !!!
Both my Dad and his friend had served in WWII and both had been in the Pacific . Dad later told me his friend had gotten it home in pieces , some were mailed and some the man carried in his sea bag . He put it all back together after the war ... supposedly it was "deactivated" but
Dad told me it ...worked !

 

[AJ]

This will be interesting to follow.

 

[moosedog]

Personally, I would delete this post and not discuss it further.

 

[Muley Gil]

40 plus years ago, I was offered a WW II Reising submachine gun. The story goes that the feller had gotten it from a Navy doctor who was at the Battle of Guadacanal. No paperwork, so I walked away, quickly!

 

[03hemi]

I agree, there's no "grandfathering in" on anything full auto, it's either transferable or it's an illegal NFA item, no gray area is what I've been taught?

 

[mtgianni]

The gun is not yours and unless you are in business and it was brought to you to evaluate, I would not run any tests. I would give advice to the current owner as how to proceed and to verify if the safety works as designed or is faulty. Advise if it is faulty and allows a second shot to fire without a separate pull of the trigger it should be repaired by a qualified gunsmith. If the gunsmith finds no issues with the safety at that point they should contact BATF.

I am aware of an broken sear on a Ruger 10-22 that allowed it to go full auto. In no way should the BATF regulate all 10-22's as full auto firearms. I would not contact any federal agency in any case based on an internet rumor that one gun may have worked in a full auto mode.

 

[2152hq]

IIRC, the Eagle Gun Co 'Thompson' was not the 'problem gun.
The Eagle, though it did have the 'open bolt design' (fired from an open bolt) which would not be allowed on the market in todays world functioned OK,,no FA flaw w/the Safety mechanism.
When Eagle went out of business (I think their factory burned down), the design or rights to the design were bought up by an outfit called Phoenix Arms.
Phoenix made the gun with some slight design changes as the 'Spitfire Carbine'

It was the Phoenix Spitfire CArbine that would fire FA if you manipulated the safety is some way and then pulled and held the trigger.

The Spitfire was classified as a 'machinegun' by the Gov't as mfg'd .

AFAIK, the orig Eagle Gun Co firearm was not.

That's how I remember it.
I still see the Eagle guns for sale once in a while as a plain Title I fire arm.
I would still advise you to check with the BATF for final guidance.
The Technology Div would likely be the best place to inquire as they do the work on NFA weapons, conversions, ect.

 

[mikerjf]

Now that Eagle is tickling some old damaged memory cells...

Back in the 1970's I visited the famous Stagecoach gun museum here. (Shakopee MN). They used to have a touristy "Pioneer Town" kinda place, but it had this gun museum attached.

There on the wall was what they called a "Thompson Prototype". At the time I had a dewat M1A1, and to me the round Sten-like receiver on this "prototype" just didn't look like something Thompson would do.

Now that I see your Eagle, I think maybe that's what it was!

 

[LLOYD17]

The grips on the 1917 are not factory - the originals were smooth with no checkering.

Not installed by the factory for the 1917 but look to be correct for an early TL.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

Now that Eagle is tickling some old damaged memory cells...

Back in the 1970's I visited the famous Stagecoach gun museum here. (Shakopee MN). They used to have a touristy "Pioneer Town" kinda place, but it had this gun museum attached.

There on the wall was what they called a "Thompson Prototype". At the time I had a dewat M1A1, and to me the round Sten-like receiver on this "prototype" just didn't look like something Thompson would do.

Now that I see your Eagle, I think maybe that's what it was!

I have a book called Guns Of The Stagecoach Museum I got as a kid. What a great place packed with guns!
When "Son Of Sam" was caught he had a semi auto Thompson type gun in his car that I think was called the "Commando" but looked like the one pictured here.

 

[ordnanceguy]

The flapped leather holster which appears to be carrying a M1911 pistol is very interesting. The flap insignia is that of the Virginia State Guard (not the National Guard). That state controlled military force was the organized militia of Virginia and has been known by a variety of names over the years. It is currently called the Virginia Defense Force.

During WW2, as was the case with the National Guard units of most states, the Virginia NG was federalized and departed the state. The State Guard stepped in, as planned, to provide state controlled defense forces for such tasks as guarding vital infrastructure such as dams, bridges, airports, riot control, etc. The State Guard was armed with M1917 Enfield Rifles and a variety of handguns.

From the overall shape of the holster it appears to me to be a revolver holster rather than one designed to carry a M1911 pistol. You might try the M1917 revolver in it to see if it fits it properly.

In my collection I have a M1916-style holster for the M1911 .45 pistol that was also issued by the Virginia State Guard in WW2. It bears the same VA insignia on the flap. These Virginia marked holsters are very scarce and considered by US holster collectors as desirable.

I hope that information is helpful to you and your son's friend.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[BearBio]

Wait until you look at the paperwork. It MAY have been licensed.

 

[TheHobbyist]

Charlie is an expert commentator, understand his statements. I am a high-end collector but pay respect, where it is due. You are in better hand in this forum, then most could hope.

 

[jrm53]

I can remember the Eagle 45 ACP look a like to the thompson as I recall it was made in Tn and cost about a hundred dollars. I have never seen one on any firearms web site come up for sale. Jeff