Be careful who you sell a firearm to.
- Thread starter E Z MUNNY
- Start date
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Years ago in california you get a divorice, most of the time the womans lawyer automaticly put a restraining order on you. That alone could keep you from being around a gun!
When I was going through my divorice my ex asked for and got a restraining order to keep me away from all gunshows in california. At first my lawyer couldnt understand the reason and told me not to fight it.
My ex and boyfriend/latter husband were working the shows and I guessed they didnt want any possible confrontations at the shows. At the same time I had taken most of my guns out of the safe to a friends house. One compartment of the safe that was key lockable I couldnt get into as I couldnt find the key. This was some old fashion big mosslers floor safe. My best safe queen handguns were in that compartment, my uncles luger, my audie murphy colt new frontier and other old colt SAAs, lighting, remington derringer, colt DA 1878 45, a 44 smith 1st model russian etc. I thought them safe, didnt know they were gone along with the key. I busted the safe open 7 months later and found out why she got that restraining order!
When I was going through my divorice my ex asked for and got a restraining order to keep me away from all gunshows in california. At first my lawyer couldnt understand the reason and told me not to fight it.
My ex and boyfriend/latter husband were working the shows and I guessed they didnt want any possible confrontations at the shows. At the same time I had taken most of my guns out of the safe to a friends house. One compartment of the safe that was key lockable I couldnt get into as I couldnt find the key. This was some old fashion big mosslers floor safe. My best safe queen handguns were in that compartment, my uncles luger, my audie murphy colt new frontier and other old colt SAAs, lighting, remington derringer, colt DA 1878 45, a 44 smith 1st model russian etc. I thought them safe, didnt know they were gone along with the key. I busted the safe open 7 months later and found out why she got that restraining order!
As near as I can determine he has not been convicted of anything yet, only charged. (except for a driving under the influence 3 years ago which is a misdemeanor).
The official record is as follows,- 'This case has not been concluded. Unless a judgment of conviction is entered, the defendant is presumed innocent of all charges.'
An interesting question...
At the time the transaction occurred, was the man a felon or otherwise not able to legally purchase a handgun? If not, the transaction was then legal. However, and this is where it gets real interesting...if he became a felon after completing the transaction, but before delivery is made, does that mean you can't deliver the handgun to him? Does refunding the money take you off the hook? (One would think so...)
I think you should consult an attorney on this. Better safe than sorry.
And this is a good example of why I do not like to do private sales...
At the time the transaction occurred, was the man a felon or otherwise not able to legally purchase a handgun? If not, the transaction was then legal. However, and this is where it gets real interesting...if he became a felon after completing the transaction, but before delivery is made, does that mean you can't deliver the handgun to him? Does refunding the money take you off the hook? (One would think so...)
I think you should consult an attorney on this. Better safe than sorry.
And this is a good example of why I do not like to do private sales...
seagill
US Veteran
I see a lot of handguns for sale in the classified ads around here. Many (not all) will only sell to someone with a CCW. Background check dilemma solved.
Out West
Member
If you don't feel good about giving him the gun he paid for (under the circumstances, I wouldn't either), then you have to give him his money back.
Some might think that keeping the money is OK because the guy is an alledged skank. Or even a convicted skank. But to do so would just put one on the same level as the skank. The money was transfered, the first part of a contract, now either the gun is passed over, or for the concerns raised, the money is returned.
Out
West
Some might think that keeping the money is OK because the guy is an alledged skank. Or even a convicted skank. But to do so would just put one on the same level as the skank. The money was transfered, the first part of a contract, now either the gun is passed over, or for the concerns raised, the money is returned.
Out
West
EdnAZ
Member
Bear in mind that it may not matter if he has been convicted:
18 USC 922(d):It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or
having reasonable cause to believe that such person -
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court
of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one
year;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from
harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such
person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging
in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in
reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except
that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that -
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received
actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to
participate; and
(B)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a
credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner
or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted
use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate
partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause
bodily injury;
Note: Under indictment for a felony or a specified restraining order.
Give the guy his money back or deliver the gun to the PD and hope that they'll sort it out for you.
18 USC 922(d):It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or
having reasonable cause to believe that such person -
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court
of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one
year;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from
harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such
person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging
in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in
reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except
that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that -
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received
actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to
participate; and
(B)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a
credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner
or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted
use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate
partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause
bodily injury;
Note: Under indictment for a felony or a specified restraining order.
Give the guy his money back or deliver the gun to the PD and hope that they'll sort it out for you.
DeathGrip
US Veteran
I'm just worried that you cashed his check.Was the're any notation on his check?
NFrameFred
Member
These threads remind me of someone who is having an affair and is in a moral quandary about telling the wife and trying to make things right . . . yeah, I'd go post it all over the internet and ask for advice 
. . . after all, she'll never find out about it . . . 
. . . after all, she'll never find out about it . . . 
geoff40
Member
Refund his money. Under no circumstances would I give him the revolver. You don't want to lose your gun rights over this. He probably needs the money for his lawyer anyway.
quneur
Member
First mistake was that you gave him your address. Never give a stranger your address especially considering he now knows you have guns in the house. What's to stop him from using the same gun then turn it on you?
Second was not checking for a valid ID to make sure the buyer was not from out of state. Gun laws falls within state jurisdiction not federal. Federal laws apply if weapons cross state lines.
Third was accepting his check. In order to cover yourself, you should have move to next door parking lot (so as not to involve the store's ffl) and completed the transaction. It does not make it right but atleast you in good conscience didn't know of his past/current transgressions. If you did have any reservations then you should not have accepted the check. I would have gone back in to the store and would have the clerk 'put it on consignment' knowing they had an immediate buyer. Pay the consignment fee then leave. The store will notify the buyers PD or sheriff's office for background check and flags will pop-up. The gun will be returned and you'll probably lose the fee but atleast you'll be able to sleep at night.
But in your situation, I would go to where the man's incarcerated and tell the officer your story. Leave the cashier's check and little note saying the laws prevent you from completing the transaction and that you couldn't keep the money in good conscience. Hope things turn out for you, blah, blah, blah.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Second was not checking for a valid ID to make sure the buyer was not from out of state. Gun laws falls within state jurisdiction not federal. Federal laws apply if weapons cross state lines.
Third was accepting his check. In order to cover yourself, you should have move to next door parking lot (so as not to involve the store's ffl) and completed the transaction. It does not make it right but atleast you in good conscience didn't know of his past/current transgressions. If you did have any reservations then you should not have accepted the check. I would have gone back in to the store and would have the clerk 'put it on consignment' knowing they had an immediate buyer. Pay the consignment fee then leave. The store will notify the buyers PD or sheriff's office for background check and flags will pop-up. The gun will be returned and you'll probably lose the fee but atleast you'll be able to sleep at night.
But in your situation, I would go to where the man's incarcerated and tell the officer your story. Leave the cashier's check and little note saying the laws prevent you from completing the transaction and that you couldn't keep the money in good conscience. Hope things turn out for you, blah, blah, blah.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
JD in Colorado
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2009
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 0
Go to the agency that arrested him. They should be more than interested that he was attempting to purchase a gun without a background check. I'm thinking he was waiting for some one in your situation so he could purchase a gun without the background check.
JD
JD
Peter J.
Member
If you go to law enforcement and mention "gun", then they will want to "see" the "gun". Since he already "paid" for the "gun", they will want to "keep the gun for investigation and safe keeping". Good chance you won't ever see the gun again. I personaly wouldn't want to talk to anybody about the gun until he contacts you, and just give him the money back for the money you "borrowed" from him a while back.
EZ MUNNY,
On your computer, type in WCCA. It's a court records site. If
the buyer has any convictions, they'll show up there. I don't know if other states have the same set-up, but we do. Any thing shows up
there, will help your concience when you hand over the money.
If he's got the bad judgement to run afoul of the law, he may not
have any better judgement about firearms. You Don't want to be a
party to his next shenanigans. Good luck! TACC1
On your computer, type in WCCA. It's a court records site. If
the buyer has any convictions, they'll show up there. I don't know if other states have the same set-up, but we do. Any thing shows up
there, will help your concience when you hand over the money.
If he's got the bad judgement to run afoul of the law, he may not
have any better judgement about firearms. You Don't want to be a
party to his next shenanigans. Good luck! TACC1
I retired from the Dept of Corr in Madison about 3 years ago and am acquainted with the WCCA website. I looked on it for this guy and like I wrote a couple of days ago the only conviction was for 'driving under the influence' which is a misdemeanor, not a felony. The other entries are for charges only, not convictions so legally he can still own a gun since state law says 'innocent until proven guilty'.
I went to the police dept in his town this morning, told them the situation and they said to wait until he calls me. Then I will tell him the deal is off as I had changed my mind about selling and I will return his money preferably by mailing a cashier's check to him. They said if he gives me any difficulty to give them a call and, that they couldn't care less about the gun, they just didn't think he should have it.
It is perfectly legal for a Wisconsin resident to sell another Wisc resident a handgun without a background check, it happens at gunshows here all of the time. I also do not believe he was looking for a gun to buy 'illegally', he was just an opportunist (Believe me, you had to have been there). The guy came in on a $3,000 carbon-fiber racing bicycle wearing spandex bicycle clothes and absolutely no room to carry anything except 2 water bottles. Does this look like someone looking for illegal firearms to buy ? I don't think so.
I went to the police dept in his town this morning, told them the situation and they said to wait until he calls me. Then I will tell him the deal is off as I had changed my mind about selling and I will return his money preferably by mailing a cashier's check to him. They said if he gives me any difficulty to give them a call and, that they couldn't care less about the gun, they just didn't think he should have it.
It is perfectly legal for a Wisconsin resident to sell another Wisc resident a handgun without a background check, it happens at gunshows here all of the time. I also do not believe he was looking for a gun to buy 'illegally', he was just an opportunist (Believe me, you had to have been there). The guy came in on a $3,000 carbon-fiber racing bicycle wearing spandex bicycle clothes and absolutely no room to carry anything except 2 water bottles. Does this look like someone looking for illegal firearms to buy ? I don't think so.
Alpo
Member
Really? He has not been convicted of a crime, but the cops have decided "he should not have a gun"?
computeruser
Member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2010
- Messages
- 135
- Reaction score
- 16
***? The police are hardly experts on matters of contract law and I'd be damned if I'd turn the gun over to them.
Return his money. If he balks, kick in $20 for interest. Problem solved.
EdnAZ
Member
Wrong. Federal laws apply to any firearm that has ever "traveled in or affected interstate commerce". This is virtually any firearm.
akviper
Member
The original post refers to a harassment/restraining order violation as part of the arrest. Restraining orders usually fall under the federal laws prohibiting possession of firearms and even ammunition. Thanks to the federal laws conviction is not needed. You only need the accusation and a judge willing to issue the order. As Feralmerril mentioned it is easily abused by those in marital strife or significant other woes.
JcMack
Member
If there's a GS you frequent, I'd stop by and ask if they'll do somekind of a transfer paperwork for you. It will require his and your presence. If the buyer refuses return his money. For now I'd keep the money and gun. Until about 12 years ago Indiana required all person to person gun sales be documented in this way. Such documentation is no longer required. Some folks are still uncomfortable without it.
