Belgian copy of the Russian No. 3

[jleiper]

Here are some first pictures of a Belgian copy of the 3rd Model No.3. These are known with several different markings and in at least 2 different calibers. This particular revolver is Cyrillic marked (incorrectly) and in .44 Russian - the chambers of the cylinder are tapered, not stepped! Other examples have been observed in 44 Henry Rim fire with English language barrel markings (RUSSIAN MODEL SMITH & WESSON NEW-YORK), and a rimfire with Turkish markings.

Side views of the Belgian copy

Barrel stamping - it has someone's name in it


Copy Acceptance Eagle - note: no inspector's initials


with a real 3rd model - this is a BIG revolver.

Joe

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

About 10 years ago I saw a Belgian copy of a #3 at a "Antique Mall". It was Nickel in good appearance, but the cylinder wouldn't lock up when the hammer was cocked. The markings were in mis-spelled English and had "Bumble Bee" proofs. The price was marked $400. I passed quickly! I did buy a pair of the modern Umberti copies for about $400 each a year and a half later. I love shooting them with Trail Boss low pressure loads, the 25 yard accuracy is 5 shots in about 1" to 1.5" and would be better with modern sights.

I didn't know that Turkey maid copies, But their contract guns matched the THOUSANDS of Henry rifles they bought. They used them to great effect against Czarist Russia along with Remington Rolling Block rifles, In a 2 day battle they exterminated almost 100,000 Russian troops with few losses of their own. The Czar shot the loosing general personally! Ivan

 

[jleiper]

About 10 years ago I saw a Belgian copy of a #3 at a "Antique Mall". It was Nickel in good appearance, but the cylinder wouldn't lock up when the hammer was cocked. The markings were in mis-spelled English and had "Bumble Bee" proofs. The price was marked $400. I passed quickly! I did buy a pair of the modern Umberti copies for about $400 each a year and a half later. I love shooting them with Trail Boss low pressure loads, the 25 yard accuracy is 5 shots in about 1" to 1.5" and would be better with modern sights.

I didn't know that Turkey maid copies, But their contract guns matched the THOUSANDS of Henry rifles they bought. They used them to great effect against Czarist Russia along with Remington Rolling Block rifles, In a 2 day battle they exterminated almost 100,000 Russian troops with few losses of their own. The Czar shot the loosing general personally! Ivan

I suggest you check your history.
The third battle of Plevna was expensive to the Russians but they did not lose 100,000 men and no general was shot.
Plevna is most interesting because it is the only major battle where a lever action weapon made a significant difference in the battle.
Joe

 

[DWalt]

I suggest you check your history.
The third battle of Plevna was expensive to the Russians but they did not lose 100,000 men and no general was shot.
It is most interesting because it is the only major battle where a lever action weapon made a significant difference in the battle.
Joe

You beat me to it. Might be best to review what actually happened at Plevna (there were actually four battles). Incidentally, the Russians eventually won, but the Turks generally had better weapons, both artillery and rifles (and not just the Winchesters). And the Russians had more troops.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Thanks for the correction. That's what I get for listening to High School history teachers instead of doing my own research. Ivan

 

[DWalt]

"It is most interesting because it is the only major battle where a lever action weapon made a significant difference in the battle."

There were a number of actions during the Civil War where the use of the Spencer played a pivotal role in Union victory, such as at Tullahoma, Gettysburg, and Chicamauga. Depends on whether you consider the Spencer as being a lever action.

 

[opoefc]

Joe, Interesting Belgian copy with those markings. As you know, you can fill a room with copies of S&W big frame top breaks made in Europe, the Middle East, Asia and South America. and they would almost be as interesting for forensic analysis as S&Ws! Have you determined the cartridge for this revolver? perhaps the .11 mm Gasser or the 11.75 mm Montenegrin ? Ed.

 

[jleiper]

Joe, Interesting Belgian copy with those markings. As you know, you can fill a room with copies of S&W big frame top breaks made in Europe, the Middle East, Asia and South America. and they would almost be as interesting for forensic analysis as S&Ws! Have you determined the cartridge for this revolver? perhaps the .11 mm Gasser or the 11.75 mm Montenegrin ? Ed.

I agree that there are all kinds of these around. This maker, whoever it was, made lot of different calibers and models. The unusual trigger guard is how this maker seems to be identified, it isn't flush to the frame like an original.

This one is in 44 Russian with a tapered, not stepped chamber.

I have seen these with Belgian/Liege proofs but this one has an odd proof I don't recognize. It is on both the barrel and cylinder face.
The other mark on the cylinder face could be an attempt to make the Cyrillic letter ‘П’ which was a Russian acceptance mark.
Joe

 

[lechat]

I had one in the past, belgium proofed, in 44 rim fire too.

I was coming back from Syria in the 70's.

Certainly a private purchase for dignitary in the Otoman Empire (engraved and with horn grips)

 

[opoefc]

Joe, I have an extensive file on foreign proof marks which I researched to see if I could identify that barrel proof make. Nada, zilch and nothing. I suspect it means nothing and was applied by the maker to fool a prospective owner. It has a very vague resemblance to the English proof of the late 1800s, so an uniformed buyer might think it was just a poor stamping of the English proof. …..44 Russian with a tapered, not stepped chamber ? .44 Russian is a straight case. How much taper is there? Ed.

 

[jleiper]

Joe, I have an extensive file on foreign proof marks which I researched to see if I could identify that barrel proof make. Nada, zilch and nothing. I suspect it means nothing and was applied by the maker to fool a prospective owner. It has a very vague resemblance to the English proof of the late 1800s, so an uniformed buyer might think it was just a poor stamping of the English proof. …..44 Russian with a tapered, not stepped chamber ? .44 Russian is a straight case. How much taper is there? Ed.

I couldn't find the mark in my proof references either and figured the same thing you did - a mark to make it look like it was proofed.
It takes a 44 Russian case perfectly but there is no step in the chambers. However, the a bullet is a press in the front of the chamber from the front face. The taper appears to be only at the front of the chamber. I will measure it and get proper numbers to confirm.
Other interesting features: hammer operated stop, no sideplate, etc.
Joe

 

[jleiper]

I had one in the past, belgium proofed, in 44 rim fire too.

I was coming back from Syria in the 70's.

Certainly a private purchase for dignitary in the Otoman Empire (engraved and with horn grips)

There are numerous examples known from the Middle East. Zhuk's Pistol and Revolver book shows an engraved example in 44 Henry rimfire with Turkish writing on the barrel rib.

Fig. 17-1 from Pistols and Revolvers by Zhuk.

Another interesting example:

Pretty and slightly different configuration mechanically.
Joe

 

[opoefc]

Joe, No side plate? That smells like middle east, Persia to India to Pakistan, etc , to me. Typical of cottage industry firearms from there. They are fun guns to reverse engineer forensically. Sounds like some early firearms designer found out that a taper in the cylinder works as a Pre-Forcing cone to help stabilize home made bullets. Ed.

 

[jleiper]

Joe, No side plate? That smells like middle east, Persia to India to Pakistan, etc , to me. Typical of cottage industry firearms from there. They are fun guns to reverse engineer forensically. Sounds like some early firearms designer found out that a taper in the cylinder works as a Pre-Forcing cone to help stabilize home made bullets. Ed.

Don't think so. Too well made and the parts are identical to guns with sideplates and Belgian/Liege proofs. Belgian manufacture for the Officer's stores in St. Petersburg and Moscow in the 1880s.



Yet another example

Cyrillic marked, caliber unknown
Joe

 

[opoefc]

That's true, quality construction is not seen in those middle eastern guns. You say the barrel marking is " Cyrllic (incorrect )". Do you mean it is just jibberish and won't translate in Russian? If so, then it was not intended to be sold in the officer's stores in Russia, but in some country that a buyer would not be expected to read Russian, we can assume. Ed.

 

[Sid V.]

I've owned one of these revolvers,mine was marked .44 Winchester caliber on barrel,had tapered cylinder bores,it fired .44-40's.It was stamped on grip frame (Pieper).

 

[jleiper]

That's true, quality construction is not seen in those middle eastern guns. You say the barrel marking is " Cyrllic (incorrect )". Do you mean it is just jibberish and won't translate in Russian? If so, then it was not intended to be sold in the officer's stores in Russia, but in some country that a buyer would not be expected to read Russian, we can assume. Ed.

The Russian is more or less correct, but one letter has been left out in the word "Weapons" and a name added in - A. Simonis.
Here are pictures of the copy and a real Smith

The copy and a Smith

Line address on the Copy -
System Smith and Wesson Weapons Factory A. Simonis Springfield America
Система Смита и Вессона Оружейна(я) Фабрика А. Симонисъ Спрингфиелдъ Америка

The fit and finish on the revolver is very nice, not Khyber Pass quality, and it doesn't mean much, but it has a serial number of 2413.

Joe

 

[DWalt]

SIMONIS Albert, manufacturer of weapons in Liege (Belgium), street Trappé 19-20 (ca. 1870s-1890s). He held quite a few gun patents. The Cyrilic legend translates to essentially the same as the English stamping.

 

[jleiper]

SIMONIS Albert, manufacturer of weapons in Liege (Belgium), street Trappé 19-20 (ca. 1870s-1890s). He held quite a few gun patents. The Cyrilic legend translates to essentially the same as the English stamping.

Thanks! I hadn't gotten around to chasing down the name yet. That confirms that it is Liege manufactured.

I have had this revolver for quite a few years, but have only started working on the "Spanish and Belgian Copies of the No. 3" section of my "Russian Revolvers" book a few weeks ago.
If anyone else has a Spanish or Belgian copy revolver or pictures I would love to see them.
Joe

 

[jleiper]

Checking out "Club Littlegun" the Belgian web site it becomes much clearer. The stamp on the frame and cylinder face is crossed rifles and a Simonis trademark.

Club Littlegun:Nouvelle page 0

Joe