belgian S&W copy found

[Mr.JD]

I'm picking up a nice Steyr hahn M1912 from a local antique shop friday. I was in last week and he asked me to ID a revolver for him. It was a 44 cal belgian copy that looked like the following

found here
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/PistolsModern.html

I did not see a date on the revolver, but it had seen better days. The timing was Way off, there were spots of surface rust, the hammer needed to be replaced, but most of the weapon was there.

Anybody have a clue of the history behind these? Any idea of the worth in fairly poor shape? I collect WW1 militaria, and thought it might have been involved, but I have no clue.

It had the leige proofs on the cylinder, and other such markings from belgian makers. The condition was poor.

 

[Mr.JD]

I'm picking up a nice Steyr hahn M1912 from a local antique shop friday. I was in last week and he asked me to ID a revolver for him. It was a 44 cal belgian copy that looked like the following

found here
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/PistolsModern.html

I did not see a date on the revolver, but it had seen better days. The timing was Way off, there were spots of surface rust, the hammer needed to be replaced, but most of the weapon was there.

Anybody have a clue of the history behind these? Any idea of the worth in fairly poor shape? I collect WW1 militaria, and thought it might have been involved, but I have no clue.

It had the leige proofs on the cylinder, and other such markings from belgian makers. The condition was poor.

 

[opoefc]

This is just one of the many cheap European copies of S&W revolvers made in Belgium, Spain, etc. You see them advertized in the gun catalogs from Europe from about 1885 to 1930. They sold new for about a third of what a real S&W cost. There's no collector interest in them, except for wallhangers or oddities. Shoot one at the peril of being fingerless, if you could find one that still functions. Ed.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Some of the Spanish and Belgian copies were actually of quite good quality. The problem is with knowing whether a particular example was a well made gun or whether it was made out of old milk cans.

I've seen these things sell for $150 plus or minus on Auction Arms (I don't use Gunbroker as much). They're usually pre 1898 and thus are non FFL items and easily sold via auction.

Unfortunately, a non functional one is little more than a parts gun, as replacing the parts is a problem.

I see that this one is tagged at $695. I feel sorry for anyone who buys it at price. Lacking any proof that it was used in WW1, such as military acceptance stamps, I'd question the seller's ethics in trying to make this into a pseudo WW1 pistol. Basically, this is a "saturday night special" from ye olden days like a Davis or Lorcin today, barring evidence that it was one of the "higher grade" copies. (And even those would be like an Iver Johnson in quality.)

 

[Mr.JD]

ok, thanks so much guys. That clears a goon many of my questions up.

Thanks again.

Jon

A question:being that I am Quite new to S&W revolvers, were any such revolvers made under fed contract for the military?

 

[s&wchad]

Originally posted by Mr.JD:
... were any such revolvers made under fed contract for the military?

Hi Jon,
Welcome to the forum. The .44 Double Action (.44 DA) revolvers were not used by the military. If you're talking about S&W revolvers in general, lots of them have been under military contract. The Schofield, Model 1917, Victory, Aircrewman etc... were purchased and used by the USA. Many other models were purchased in smaller quantities for training/competition/special duty over the years.

 

[Mr.JD]

I here you. I wonder if the S&W parts will fit these? I've never really been into revolvers, but it's such a large, robust framed handgun, makes you feel taller so to speak.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Belgian revolvers were often made in small shops, it was literally a "cottage" industry in years past. Thus fit was often by hand/tinkering and can vary from gun to gun that left the same place. Sometimes one guy made some parts, his brother in law, others, etc. It's possible, but unlikely, that SW parts would fit.

Officers in European armies would sometimes buy their own revolvers, but I don't know if Belgian officers did. Spanish copies of SW revolvers did see use in the Spanish Civil War, but documentation on these things is everything.

Otherwise... I have a reblued M&P from 1947-48. I can show you photos from books about Marine officers taking their private .38s to war. This gun existed during the Korean war. Apparently if I ran the site initially shown, I'd price this gun at a grand and tell you it was used by a Marine office to single handedly kill 40 North Koreans.... Without papers, this is just a story, and subject to someone making one up on a fishing expedition.

If you want a WW1 handgun, the best values for relatively cheap are the various "Ruby" autos, Nagants, and then French martial revolvers. Follow this with other "minor" guns like German revolvers, Italian, etc. Martial Colts of the period are still available, and shootable, but pricey, as are Webleys.

Just watch Auction Arms, all kinds of things turn up in the Penny Auctions.

Out of curiousity, the shop show is in Fredericksburg. ARe you in the area JD? I'm in Stafford myself.

 

[Mr.JD]

Afraid not. I'm from alabama.

 

[gunbarrel]

Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
I have a reblued M&P from 1947-48. I can show you photos from books about Marine officers taking their private .38s to war. This gun existed during the Korean war. Apparently if I ran the site initially shown, I'd price this gun at a grand and tell you it was used by a Marine office to single handedly kill 40 North Koreans.... Without papers, this is just a story, and subject to someone making one up on a fishing expedition.

Out of curiousity, the shop show is in Fredericksburg. ARe you in the area JD? I'm in Stafford myself.

GatorFarmer,

I may be going to the Fredericksburg area in November to visit family. Are there any gun, or military, shows scheduled at the beginning of the month? So far my only plan is to visit the new Marine Corps museum.

Thanks,

GB

PS Hope you like these pics.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Gunbarrel,

You might want to ask BruceHMX or post a general question in the lounge as there are a couple of guys from this area on the forum. I get emails regarding gunshows from some list I'm on, but I'm not big on shows (baby due soon). I've only been here since Feb.

The Marine museum was recently featured in Small Arms Review which showcases some of the excellent small arms displays. (My wife is a Corpsman at Quantico.) It is well worth the trip. The base exchange and some other facilities on the base itself are being renovated and aren't quite so nice. There are a couple of large malls and other shopping just north of of the base. Potomac Mills Mall is I think what the one big one is called.

I'm curious, was ammo for the revolver carried loose in the .45 mag pouch on the belt? Excellent photos by the way.

 

[gunbarrel]

Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
I'm curious, was ammo for the revolver carried loose in the .45 mag pouch on the belt? Excellent photos by the way.

GatorFarmer,

My understanding is that carrying revolver ammo loose in .45 mag pouches was common practice for some guys that carried revolvers. Thanks for the info!

GB