donniedee
Member
id like to carry a load and two speed strips of hot +p hp but don't want to harm it, would this be ok? or whats the "best" non +P loads for a 1954 pre 36 chiefs spcl in 38spcl
BEST 38SPCL ROUND FOR MY 1954 CHIEFS 38SPCL?
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Might want to ask a mod to fuse the three threads you have asking this question -- better way to pool the information.
If you're concerned about putting heavy stuff through an older, pre-model J-frame, I'd consider Hornady Critical Defense 110gr .38 Special standard pressure. Doc Roberts and Brassfetcher, among others, have gotten good results in FBI protocol tests, and it's a soft shooter compared to most other .38 defense loads.
Alternately, some swear by target wadcutter loads in J-frame snubbies; this has been discussed much around here, including very recently -- run a search, read up and decide for yourself. Theory is that many defense loads have a lower likelihood of expanding when fired from a snubby, while the flat-faced wadcutter will cut and crush well on impact with tissue. Personally, I think the wadcutter bullet itself could be very effective for defense, but I'm skeptical of it when powered down to target loads.
If you're confident that your '53 snubby can handle the heavier stuff -- and there's good reason to believe it can -- here are my suggestions:
1) Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 gr. HP .38 Special +P
2) CorBon DPX 110 gr. HP .38 Special +P
3) Buffalo Bore 158 gr. LSWCHC .38 Special "standard pressure"
4) Any of the LSWCHP "FBI loads" offered by Remington, Federal or Winchester.
If you're concerned about putting heavy stuff through an older, pre-model J-frame, I'd consider Hornady Critical Defense 110gr .38 Special standard pressure. Doc Roberts and Brassfetcher, among others, have gotten good results in FBI protocol tests, and it's a soft shooter compared to most other .38 defense loads.
Alternately, some swear by target wadcutter loads in J-frame snubbies; this has been discussed much around here, including very recently -- run a search, read up and decide for yourself. Theory is that many defense loads have a lower likelihood of expanding when fired from a snubby, while the flat-faced wadcutter will cut and crush well on impact with tissue. Personally, I think the wadcutter bullet itself could be very effective for defense, but I'm skeptical of it when powered down to target loads.
If you're confident that your '53 snubby can handle the heavier stuff -- and there's good reason to believe it can -- here are my suggestions:
1) Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 gr. HP .38 Special +P
2) CorBon DPX 110 gr. HP .38 Special +P
3) Buffalo Bore 158 gr. LSWCHC .38 Special "standard pressure"
4) Any of the LSWCHP "FBI loads" offered by Remington, Federal or Winchester.
hotrod150
Member
Ditto on #3 & 4 above or the BB hardcast wadctter, or a handloaded equivalent of any of these.
Winchester Silvertips Standard Velocity.
+1 with jimmyj;
(110gr 2" at 875fps 187 ft/lb energy... Gel at 8.8" )
a 125 Jhp at 870 fps with 210 ft/lbs of energy is a light +P with a power factor of 108. The 125gr Nyclad at only 836 fps has a PF of 104 which is safe in the old guns so you are in the ball park for a "Limited +P" load, since the Federal Nyclad is very hard to find..... it may be even, discontinued?
For a non +p the 158 or 148gr wc is your best choice for any penetration
at the lowest velocities in a snub nose but if you reload a 148 wc at 710 fps is still in the 38 spl. spec's with a 105 power factor in the J frame snub nose.
figures c/o my M49 snub
(110gr 2" at 875fps 187 ft/lb energy... Gel at 8.8" )
a 125 Jhp at 870 fps with 210 ft/lbs of energy is a light +P with a power factor of 108. The 125gr Nyclad at only 836 fps has a PF of 104 which is safe in the old guns so you are in the ball park for a "Limited +P" load, since the Federal Nyclad is very hard to find..... it may be even, discontinued?
For a non +p the 158 or 148gr wc is your best choice for any penetration
at the lowest velocities in a snub nose but if you reload a 148 wc at 710 fps is still in the 38 spl. spec's with a 105 power factor in the J frame snub nose.
figures c/o my M49 snub
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hotrod150
Member
I know this is the ammo forum, not the handloading forum, but my Hornady book #3 lists some 148gr HBWC handloads producing 950fps out of a 4" revolver. Even at about 850 out of a 2-incher, those oughta be pretty effective self-defense rounds.
Pisgah
Member
I frankly doubt any +P loading would hurt your gun, at least in anything less than thousands of rounds. But if you wish to err on the side of caution and use any one of many excellent non-+p loads on the market, you'll have peace of mind with very little if any sacrifice in effectiveness.
hotrod150
Member
I know a lot of people seem to like the lightweight JHPs, esp the short-barrel Speer loads. I have concerns that a bullet designed to readily expand when shot out of a 2" barrel at 1000fps or less might possibly over-expand or even come apart if it encounters something like bone or even a stout leather jacket. That's why a heavy (148-158gr) lead bullet makes sense to me. Best of all might be a full-power soft wadcutter: lots of "shocking power" due to the full-caliber flat nose, good penetration due to weight, yet with some chance of moderate expansion due to soft lead construction. My Hornady manual #3 shows some loads for their 148gr HBWC which achive up to 950fps out of a 4" barrel-- those ought to hit about 850 out of a snubby and IMHO would be a good self-defense load.
Brassfetcher tested the Speer Short Barrel load in .38 -- shot from a snubby -- against 10% gel with a bone plate in front of it. Now, in an actual shooting it's unlikely for a bullet to have to pass through a wide, solid, flat plate of bone save perhaps for a direct sternum shot, but still, an interesting addition to the FBI protocols.
Upshot was that the Gold Dots clogged with bone and basically turned into wadcutters:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special/38 Special Bone Test.pdf
Not the expansion intended, but plenty of crush cavity causing penetration.
I think that test was flawed on several levels.
I've shot many living things with all kinds of bullets...and I've NEVER seen bone, even when just under the skin, clog a hollow point like that--real, living bone simply doesn't act like that. It shatters--not get cut out in neat little circles--and it also deforms the bullet.
In short, I think the tester had an agenda, and set up the tests to prove it.
That being said--I think the classic LSWC-HP (FBI Load) would be my choice--I know it is in my early 70's 36-1...and I also wouldn't be afraid to use it in my 1921-ish M&P.
It wouldn't be my range load; I'd maybe shoot a cylinder or two just to make sure I thought it was controllable...but 10 or so rounds will not hurt the pistol.
I've shot many living things with all kinds of bullets...and I've NEVER seen bone, even when just under the skin, clog a hollow point like that--real, living bone simply doesn't act like that. It shatters--not get cut out in neat little circles--and it also deforms the bullet.
In short, I think the tester had an agenda, and set up the tests to prove it.
That being said--I think the classic LSWC-HP (FBI Load) would be my choice--I know it is in my early 70's 36-1...and I also wouldn't be afraid to use it in my 1921-ish M&P.
It wouldn't be my range load; I'd maybe shoot a cylinder or two just to make sure I thought it was controllable...but 10 or so rounds will not hurt the pistol.
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gaucho1
Member
I think this is the least complicated best practical advise.
Shot placement is SO much more critical than the minutia of any particular
load selection.
I think the real questions are what can you shoot well and how much do you practice?
I think Remington still makes a 158gr swc standard velocity .38spl load.
Peter M. Eick
Member
Having chrono-ed "FBI" loads from Winchester, Remington and other commercial ammo, I would get the buffalo bore standard pressure loads. They are as close to what I would whip up as a reloader and probably better overall as they have access to powders I cannot get.
I don't want to upset the apple cart about the 148 doing 850 in a snub nose but.....................
My chrony may have been off but the factory Remington 148 wc
on 11/13/2012 in my M49 snub crossed my screen at 8 feet doing.......................
641 fps.
2.7grs of Bullseye did 628 fps..........that same day.
My chrony may have been off but the factory Remington 148 wc
on 11/13/2012 in my M49 snub crossed my screen at 8 feet doing.......................
641 fps.
2.7grs of Bullseye did 628 fps..........that same day.
I'll add my 2 cents here. Take this for what you will:
Putting 5-15 rounds of hot loads through it in a gunfight isn't going to "hurt" it. Even if it did, if it gets YOU through the fight unhurt, it's done it's job, and that's the ONLY thing that matters.
Do not worry about hurting your defensive carry gun. It's purpose is to protect you. If somehow a situation arose where you have to destroy it to save your life, you should feel no reservations about doing so. If you have a gun that you like but it's too nice to carry, then don't carry it. Your carry gun should be all business. If it loses some bluing, if it gets a scratch, it's all in the line of duty. Don't worry about it; be proud of it.
Worry less about your ammo hurting your weapon, and worry more about your ammo hurting your enemy. Carry the load you can place accurately on target, and something designed for short barrels so you're not wasting excess powder on flash and recoil for no added velocity.
Putting 5-15 rounds of hot loads through it in a gunfight isn't going to "hurt" it. Even if it did, if it gets YOU through the fight unhurt, it's done it's job, and that's the ONLY thing that matters.
Do not worry about hurting your defensive carry gun. It's purpose is to protect you. If somehow a situation arose where you have to destroy it to save your life, you should feel no reservations about doing so. If you have a gun that you like but it's too nice to carry, then don't carry it. Your carry gun should be all business. If it loses some bluing, if it gets a scratch, it's all in the line of duty. Don't worry about it; be proud of it.
Worry less about your ammo hurting your weapon, and worry more about your ammo hurting your enemy. Carry the load you can place accurately on target, and something designed for short barrels so you're not wasting excess powder on flash and recoil for no added velocity.
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cocojo
Member
Try the hornady 158 xtp standard velocity round. Good weight for penetration and will deform a bit to cut tissue. I like it, it's a good round. You Tube has a Gell test on this round out of a 2 inch, very impressive. Very available on line at good prices. Critical defense 110 is another good option but penetration is less with lighter weight bullet. Harder to locate at this time. I would not go to a +P with this old gem.
JimC
Member
FWIW and maybe not much to some but, I attended the S&W Armorer's Course for revolvers in 1985 at the S&W Academy.
When the question of using +P ammo in their M-36 and M-60 revolvers came up, the instructors for that day all agreed when the said..."don't" or "no" to using it.
I know we've all done it, some more than others but long term use of +P ammo in the older models is just asking for trouble long term.
The next day one of the instructors brought in a M-36 2" that had seen a diet of +P ammo. The frame had stretched to the point that the gun experienced constant misfires because the firing pin no longer could reach the cartridge primer.
This is a non-repairable issue but creates a real nice paperweight.
When the question of using +P ammo in their M-36 and M-60 revolvers came up, the instructors for that day all agreed when the said..."don't" or "no" to using it.
I know we've all done it, some more than others but long term use of +P ammo in the older models is just asking for trouble long term.
The next day one of the instructors brought in a M-36 2" that had seen a diet of +P ammo. The frame had stretched to the point that the gun experienced constant misfires because the firing pin no longer could reach the cartridge primer.
This is a non-repairable issue but creates a real nice paperweight.
