Best practice when selling a gun FTF

[586nickel]

Maybe this is covered somewhere else around here, but I couldn't find it. I'm looking for a "best practice" when selling on a FTF basis. If I ever do sell any of my guns, I want a paper trail that demonstrates that the gun that was originally purchased by me is no longer in my possession. (By the way, is it face-to-face or friend-to-friend or both?)

Do most sellers on a FTF transaction require that the other person be a CCW holder?

So what is recommended?
-- Bill of sale w/ both parties names and addresses, gun description and serial number
-- Copy of drivers license?
-- Copy of CCW permit?

Thanks!

 

[oldman45]

I try not to sell a gun. It is better to buy than sell.

On the occasions I have sold guns, I got the person to produce a photo ID and wrote the driver's license # down. Then I had the person sign a sales agreement that describes the gun and states they are eligible by law to purchase the gun.

Not fool proof but at least will give me a good defense in the event something comes up later.

 

[labworm]

Maybe this is covered somewhere else around here, but I couldn't find it. I'm looking for a "best practice" when selling on a FTF basis. If I ever do sell any of my guns, I want a paper trail that demonstrates that the gun that was originally purchased by me is no longer in my possession. (By the way, is it face-to-face or friend-to-friend or both?)

Do most sellers on a FTF transaction require that the other person be a CCW holder?

So what is recommended?
-- Bill of sale w/ both parties names and addresses, gun description and serial number
-- Copy of drivers license?
-- Copy of CCW permit?

Thanks!

Each State has different rules, so I would check your state gun laws or rephrase your question stating which state you are referring to. Then someone with lots of knowledge will chime in.

 

[NFrameFred]

Varies from state to state. Depends on your specific state laws. Federal law is plain on selling across state lines.

But even in a state like mine with no official state laws or rules governing private sales, it does well to bear in mind that its still against the law and common sense to sell to someone who is a felon or mentally incompetent. Now, there's no way those details can ever be truly known, as lot's of those folks walk into gun stores and fill out 4473's and buy guns every year. The Brady check can claim some success in stopping a few felons who are stupid enough to try to it, but no method will ever be fool proof.

To protect myself and show that I have attempted due diligence I require a bill of sale with description and serial number of the gun. I make two copies and the buyer can do with his copy as he sees fit, but unless I have one in my file with his signature and driver's license info on it he doesn't get the gun. Simple as that. My bills-of-sale also have a statement on it where the buyer signs in which they attest that they "know of no reason why they are not legally able to possess and own" the firearm. Some will tell you that's not worth the paper it's written on, but if I'm called on to explain why an individual who misuses that gun in the future came into possession of a firearm traceable to me I'd rather have that paper trail than not. Let the state prove that I knowingly sold a gun to a felon or a mental patient. I'd never do that, and the burden is on them to prove it.

And the common sense part of it goes a long way - if it just doesn't 'feel' right, I won't complete the sale. Not worth it.

 

[standerson]

I have a bill of sale made up that lists the serial number and description of the firearm. It states the weapon is being sold "as is" and no warranty is given or implied. One paragraph says "By my signature, I certify I am legally able to own firearms".

I also require a CCW/CHL license and I copy the number down.

 

[crofoot629]

Green dollar bills and a reasonable belief the buyer was from the same state always worked for me.

Emory

 

[writerinmo]

All I have to do is see that the buyer is from the same state, but I usually give a bill of sale for both of us with pertinent information. Sometimes the buyer is just as concerned about buying a stolen gun as we are about selling to someone who isn't supposed to own one. If they balk at providing basic info, then I pass on the sale.

 

[m1gunner]

I follow the letter of the law, and nothing more.

My state requires that a buyer can not be a person prohibited from buying a gun for a FTF sale to be legal.

I satisfy that any buyer is a legal gun buyer, and trade the gun for cash. Done deal.

If I feel the buyer is squirrily or making an illegal purchase, the sale goes through a licensed gun dealer.

It kills me that folks scream about not wanting more gun control or gun registration, but when it is their decision, that is exactly what they opt for.

 

[redlevel]

I agree with m1gunner. I am not an investigator. If I reasonably believe someone is eligible to own a gun, then who am I to delve deeper? I do 90% of deals with people on a local forum. Most of them have multiple feedback. Many are pretty well known to me. I don't mind showing my GA DL and GWL, but I really would prefer no one take that information down. Most people offer to show a DL and GWL. Seeing their credentials is plenty of evidence to me that they are eligible. I am certainly not going to add anything to the state and Federal requirements.

I don't believe your bills of sale are worth the paper they are written on if they are not notarized.

 

[mtgianni]

In MT green bills and a firm handshake have always worked for me.

 

[NFrameFred]

It kills me that folks scream about not wanting more gun control or gun registration, but when it is their decision, that is exactly what they opt for.

Just a thought - assume you're selling a gun that you went into a shop and purchased and your name is tied to the 4473.

You sell it based on the criteria you describe above and six months later the state police accompanied by an BATFE agent shows up on your doorstep and informs you that this same gun was found to be used in a string of homicides, or robberies, or a political assassination, or whatever. Your name is last on the list on the paper trail. "Well, you see ocifer, I sold that gun to an honest lookin' feller at the flea market a couple a months ago. No, I don't remember his name. No, don't have a bill of sale. Hope you fellers catch him, though !"

I, for one, would just as soon not to have to prove my whereabouts to the minute for some random date weeks or months ago and have every aspect of my life and every orifice looked in to.

"Nah, that'd never happen" and "Hey, I haven't done anything wrong so nothin' bad's gonna happen to me".

Famous last words.

I satisfy that any buyer is a legal gun buyer, and trade the gun for cash. Done deal.

If by that you mean you ask for a positive ID and ask the guy if he's legal to purchase a gun, then you have done all you're obligated to do. I just like to be able to have those details written down where they can be checked against the above scenario . . . . .

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Back when I was dumb enough to sell one of my guns, other than a trusted close friend, I would always put it on consignment sale at a trusted local gunshop. For a few bucks I could rest easy knowing that the hassel's was with the dealer.

 

[redlevel]

I just like to be able to have those details written down where they can be checked against the above scenario . . . . .

So the "ocifer" goes to the guy whose information you have taken down in a (non-notarized) BOS. "I never heard of the guy. So he robbed all those places, and he forged my name to a document. That ain't my signature. I have never owned a Belchfire Fawty"

Really, buying, trading, and selling guns between individuals here in my part of the South is a time-honored tradition. I have seen shotguns sold or traded between complete strangers on a dove field. I have seen deer rifles and handguns bought, sold, and traded at deer camps. I have bought guns from people at the farmers market, filling stations, and literally standing on the street at midnight in my home town. In fifty years of watching and taking part in this kind of perfectly legal activity, I have never known of or heard of anything like your scenario. This is Georgia. It ain't New Yawk City, and I'm glad.

 

[m1gunner]

Just a thought - assume you're selling a gun that you went into a shop and purchased and your name is tied to the 4473.

You sell it based on the criteria you describe above and six months later the state police accompanied by an BATFE agent shows up on your doorstep and informs you that this same gun was found to be used in a string of homicides, or robberies, or a political assassination, or whatever. Your name is last on the list on the paper trail. "Well, you see ocifer, I sold that gun to an honest lookin' feller at the flea market a couple a months ago. No, I don't remember his name. No, don't have a bill of sale. Hope you fellers catch him, though !"

I, for one, would just as soon not to have to prove my whereabouts to the minute for some random date weeks or months ago and have every aspect of my life and every orifice looked in to.

"Nah, that'd never happen" and "Hey, I haven't done anything wrong so nothin' bad's gonna happen to me".

Famous last words.



If by that you mean you ask for a positive ID and ask the guy if he's legal to purchase a gun, then you have done all you're obligated to do. I just like to be able to have those details written down where they can be checked against the above scenario . . . . .

If your scenereo happens, I ask if I am under arrest. If not, I ask the occifer in charge to leave his card and I will refer his questions to my lawyer.

Your hand written non notarized or witnessed receipt is worth bupkis in court. What it does do is give the BATFE goofs evidence that you may be doing business as an unlicensed gun dealer.

I shall lose no sleep over crimes committed by others who I have no control over.

I am a law abiding citizen, and I follow the law, period.

 

[NFrameFred]

/Your hand written non notarized or witnessed receipt is worth bupkis in court. What it does do is give the BATFE goofs evidence that you may be doing business as an unlicensed gun dealer.

Man you guys can really grasp some straws with some convoluted logic . . .

How does the above statement differ in your world from the fact that if YOU are called into question about a gun they KNOW was signed out to you and you have NO other explanation or documentation, that "the BATFE goofs" (as you call them) don't have de facto evidence that you are operating as an unlicensed gun dealer. Unless you want to compound it by lying and tell them someone stole it and it just wasn't important enough for you to report it to the police.

You guys are so busy trying to justify a sloppy way of doing things that you're contorting in all directions. If you are comfortable operating that way - have at it. It's not illegal . . .yet (though that's probably coming).

And redlevel, I too have seen and been around most of those scenarios you relate seeing and being part of - the OP was asking about how others handle it. I told him. Neither you or m1gunner seem to be doing anything illegal or even attempting to - that's the way things are done in a lot of places in the country and as m1gunner said (and I did, if you bother to read the posts) that if it doesn't 'feel' right - you pass on completing the sale.

The unspoken 800 pound gorilla here that most who operate this way don't bother to mention, is that they likely have no qualms about operating this way with one they bought that way. But if their name is tied to that gun by paperwork I'm betting quite a few less actually do that when pressed to tell the truth.

As an FFL holder for several years I can attest that when an agent of the gubmint is standing in your living room looking at your records and asking questions, even of a general nature, the mood is quite different than when you're posting on a forum about "well, here's what I'd tell those goofs".

I'm not a lawyer or a police officer, but I have been around long enough to observe that anybody can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't have to have merit - but you can still find yourself in legal jeopardy (or the hassle and expense of sorting it all out) by doing nothing wrong. Long after criminal charges are dismissed in a lot of cases people are still successfully sued in civil court for not exercising prudent caution or due diligence. The standard for proof is a lot less there. Mas Ayoob once commented on those who carry and like to wear T-shirts with catchy phrases like "Kill 'em & let God sort 'em out". He said if he ever had to shoot someone he hoped when the cops showed up he was wearing a shirt the said "Peace on earth, good will toward men".

Operate as you wish - I was criticizing no one who operates this way. I was relating how I see it and participating in the discussion - that's the purpose of the thread. You pays yer money and you takes yer chances. Too many people in the world looking for an easy score at someone elses expense for my peace of mind, if it doesn't concern you, carry on. After carefully re-reading my original post in this thread ( which some should apparently do) I find NOTHING where I (unlike some of you) dispensed any legal advice or said "Here's how you should do it !". The OP asked how others handled it and I told him how I handle it. I'm done with this silliness.

 

[samurai]

Even though our state doesn't require a bill of sale, I offer one to the buyer and require one from the seller. All I have on it is the basics and do need to see a state issued ID- for age and residency. Most of the time there is not a problem, the only time there was the buyer turned out to be "out of state buyer" .

 

[Strato]

I've sold one handgun that had a paper trail leading to me. I have a notorized bill of sale with a photo copy of the buyer's DL on it. The buck don't stop here.

 

[CajunBass]

Green dollar bills and a reasonable belief the buyer was from the same state always worked for me.

Emory

Same here.

Just for sake of argument. Do you really think a hand written bill of sale from "Joe Blow" is going to change anything?

 

[m1gunner]

As an FFL holder for several years I can attest that when an agent of the gubmint is standing in your living room looking at your records and asking questions, even of a general nature, the mood is quite different than when you're posting on a forum about "well, here's what I'd tell those goofs".

I'm not a lawyer or a police officer, but I have been around long enough to observe that anybody can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't have to have merit - but you can still find yourself in legal jeopardy (or the hassle and expense of sorting it all out) by doing nothing wrong. Long after criminal charges are dismissed in a lot of cases people are still successfully sued in civil court for not exercising prudent caution or due diligence. The standard for proof is a lot less there. Mas Ayoob once commented on those who carry and like to wear T-shirts with catchy phrases like "Kill 'em & let God sort 'em out". He said if he ever had to shoot someone he hoped when the cops showed up he was wearing a shirt the said "Peace on earth, good will toward men".

As a FFL, it is illegal for you to sell FTF.

Further, you may have read about the crazy NY mayor doing sting purchases from Ga gun shops in his attempt to make NY gun laws go nation wide. All but one of the gunshops ignored the legal mumbojumbo from the NY folks (that have NO jurisdiction anywhere outside NY). The one gunshop that decided to co-operate and fight the charges is now the big loser. All the other gunshops had their cases tossed for lack of jurisdiction, but the gunshop that went along with NY and the feds now has to continue to contest the charges because he acknowledged jurisdiction and allowed the case to go forward.

If an item is not-titled property, sell it as such. Don't go around gathering up rope for folks that want to further their agenda, less they use that rope to hang you.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I agree with m1gunner. I am not an investigator. If I reasonably believe someone is eligible to own a gun, then who am I to delve deeper? I do 90% of deals with people on a local forum. Most of them have multiple feedback. Many are pretty well known to me. I don't mind showing my GA DL and GWL, but I really would prefer no one take that information down. Most people offer to show a DL and GWL. Seeing their credentials is plenty of evidence to me that they are eligible. I am certainly not going to add anything to the state and Federal requirements.

I don't believe your bills of sale are worth the paper they are written on if they are not notarized.

People misunderstand exactly what a notary's function is. Basicly he certifies that the person who signed the instrument before him has identified himself by competent ID to be the person he says he is-nothing more nothing less. Acts of sale are normally forward looking documents in that they protect the purchaser by proving a valid chain of title. Normally a private sale of a firearm does not usually take place in a notary's presence. I'm not in the business of buying & selling so I remember my transactions. Record keeping can be a two edged sword-it in itself can be an indicator of doing someting as a business. I follow the law. I ask to see a picture ID to satisfy myself that the guy is a resident of Louisiana and I ask if he has any legal impediments preventing him from buying a firearm. Period-that's it. If someone shows up inquiring about a gun used in a crime I tell them to talk to my lawyer. Period. As far as buying guns from private individuals, I only buy from people I know and my gun inventory specifically lists whether or not the gun was bought with or without a 4473.

My experience has been that if the Feds want you, they are going to get you. No matter what you try to do to prevent it. As a general rule when they want you, it is because you have done something bad.

I'll add one more thing that is NOT politically correct and that is that doing a little profiling prior to selling is great for ones peace of mind.