Better spring kit for 642 - Wolff or Apex?

[oneounceload]

After reading several threads here as well as watching many Boob Tube videos, I am seriously considering changing out the springs on my 642, so the question becomes - which set is the better choice - the Wolff pack of two springs for the main and rebound or the Apex kit that also includes a new firing pin and spring as well?

If the consensus is the Wolff, how do you determine which weight to go with?

Trying to reduce the DA pull to aid in my shooting this thing

Thanks in advance.

 

[alde]

After reading several threads here as well as watching many Boob Tube videos, I am seriously considering changing out the springs on my 642, so the question becomes - which set is the better choice - the Wolff pack of two springs for the main and rebound or the Apex kit that also includes a new firing pin and spring as well?

If the consensus is the Wolff, how do you determine which weight to go with?

Trying to reduce the DA pull to aid in my shooting this thing

Thanks in advance.

I put a Wilson Combat kit in my 642 and really like it. Trigger is a bit lighter and smoother and has not had any failures.

 

[Cardboard_killer]

Wolff, but buy SKU 32355 (One each 8, 8.5 and 9# mainspring) and 16670 (5 rebound springs ranging from 11-15#). Start with the lightest springs and test for reliability and trigger reset. Increase to the next strongest mainspring if ignition is unreliable; increase to the next strongest rebound spring if the trigger doesn't reset fast enough.

 

[oneounceload]

With the lighter springs is the slightly longer firing pin offered by both Apex and Wilson needed?

 

[Continental Op]

I went with Apex

I put the Apex kit in my no-dash 640 and liked it a lot. The extended firing pin only comes with the Apex kit.

 

[oneounceload]

Right as a kit, but another is available - my question is - is it necessary to ensure firing when using lighter springs?

 

[Fastbolt]

Is the 642 going to be used as a dedicated defensive revolver? Invest some time to "improve" the shooter.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/239247-j-frame-trigger-springs.html

 

[TucsonMTB]

Right as a kit, but another is available - my question is - is it necessary to ensure firing when using lighter springs?

My stock firing pin in a 638 measures only one thousandth of an inch shorter than the Apex firing pin. That is one third the thickness of a piece of paper.

Based on the minimal physical difference, I don't believe it is all that important.

Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary . . . which is why most people suggest testing after a spring change to reduce trigger pull.

 

[tomcatt51]

My stock firing pin in a 638 measures only one thousandth of an inch shorter than the Apex firing pin. That is one third the thickness of a piece of paper.

Based on the minimal physical difference, I don't believe it is all that important.

You got lucky. The new style FMFP J frames have the same firing pin and firing pin length issues the K, L, N frames have. Some have the "good" .492 - .495 length pins and then there are many with the shorter (.480 -.490) length pins that can be problematic.

 

[oneounceload]

^^^good stuff to know, guess I will need to measure mine to be more sure

 

[hotrod150]

I originally bought a Wolff spring kit which had an 8# main spring, & three (13,14,15#) rebound springs to tune up my (first) model 36 Chief. Stock main spring for a centerfire J frame is 8-1/2#-- I don't think the 8-pounder is much of an improvement so I didn't use it. The 13# rebound spring worked great so that was all I ended up using out of the kit. For the next j-frame tune-ups I just bought some 13# rebound springs-- Wolff sells both a 3-pack & a 13-pack. They also sell a stock (8-1/2#) main spring-- I bought a 3-pack of those just in case one of the used j-frames I like to buy has an old tired mainspring.
What I do as part of a "duty tune", besides changing the rebound spring, is to use an arkansas stone to smooth out the rebound slide & adjacent frame surfaces, which improves the DA pull. I do NOT try to stone the sear engagement surfaces- pretty tight tolerances & I do not have the skills or knowledge to do it right.

 

[Cardboard_killer]

What I do as part of a "duty tune", besides changing the rebound spring, is to use an arkansas stone to smooth out the rebound slide & adjacent frame surfaces, which improves the DA pull.

If you are only going to smooth the rebound slide/frame I would not bother with a stone if you don't already have one. I'd go with 1000 grit sandpaper, then Mother's Metal polish for the final polishing. The channel in the slide where the spring rests should be polished (I use lots of qtips and metal polish), and lubricated during reassembly.

 

[TucsonMTB]

If you are only going to smooth the rebound slide/frame I would not bother with a stone if you don't already have one. I'd go with 1000 grit sandpaper, then Mother's Metal polish for the final polishing. The channel in the slide where the spring rests should be polished (I use lots of qtips and metal polish), and lubricated during reassembly.

+1 . . . The local Home Depot, or maybe it was the local Ace Hardware, had some 1500 grit wet or dry paper. I bought a small pack quite a while ago. It was easier for me to lay a sheet of 1500 grit paper on a glass table top as a backing and move the recoil slide back and forth, rather than moving the paper. That process created a mirror finish very easily.

 

[Fastbolt]

Something else that might be prudent to consider in a dedicated defensive revolver ...

If you fool around with spring rates to achieve a lighter trigger, under ideal conditions, it might not consistently work as desired under less-than-ideal conditions. Nicely clean gun versus a gun dropped into a muddy puddle, or exposed to gusting winds blowing very fine sand and grit.

Once you start to get fouling, debris or some other unexpected contaminant inside the gun, the "lighter" springs might not have the force necessary to overcome the existing conditions and let the gun function normally.

It might not be an issue with a target/range gun, but it might become an issue with a gun carried out & about in the everyday world, exposed to all manner of environmental conditions.

The first time you experience the trigger not fully recovering, which means the gun can't be fired again, it sort of gets your attention.

In my case (discussed in the linked forum thread) it was a lighter/reduced power rebound slide spring that started to interfere with being able to run the gun under fast-paced shooting drills. Once I'd become accustomed to the lighter weight and resulting controllability issues with my first 642-1 (compared to my all-steel 649), using +P loads, I was able to fire faster shot strings for some of the more demanding drills.

Once I started shooting faster, I found my trigger finger was out-running the trigger's recovery, causing me problems when I was trying to press the trigger faster than it could recover.

Once I replaced the lighter-than-factory rebound slide spring with the factory spring, the trigger recovered very briskly and more than kept pace with my shooting. FWIW, the lighter spring I was using was the heaviest of the 3-pack I'd ordered, and which I'd used because the lighter 2 springs wouldn't allow consistent trigger recovery to varying degrees.

Also, if you only develop your revolver skillset to work with a modified, lighter sprung revolver, don't be surprised if your skillset doesn't result in an improvement of your ability to shoot other revolvers that aren't similarly modified.

An "improved" skillset can be applied to any gun.

 

[TucsonMTB]

. . . An "improved" skillset can be applied to any gun.

Well said, sir! All good points and I could not agree more.

The first double action pistol I learned to shoot well was a Kel-Tec P-11 with a P-40 upper installed. The trigger was truly horrible.

That gun moved on to another happy owner years ago. But, even now there are very few pistols that I cannot shoot reasonably well.

These days, when someone hands me an unfamiliar pistol to try out at our local Pima Pistol Club range, that "improved" skill set makes it much more fun.

Life is good!

 

[Cardboard_killer]

Also, if you only develop your revolver skillset to work with a modified, lighter sprung revolver, don't be surprised if your skillset doesn't result in an improvement of your ability to shoot other revolvers that aren't similarly modified

If you modify all your revolvers to the same trigger pull/reset, the skillset will apply to all your revolvers.

 

[Fastbolt]

If you modify all your revolvers to the same trigger pull/reset, the skillset will apply to all your revolvers.

Even if I were inclined to start modifying ALL my DA/DAO revolvers (which I'm NOT), my "existing" skillset based upon those modified revolvers wouldn't help me develop a skillset to be able to use other revolvers. That was especially important to me when I was carrying a series of issued revolvers, and carrying a couple of J-frames off-duty. I wanted my trigger finger and overall skillset sufficient to use with ANY revolver I might have to use.

I appreciate nicely refined sporting/target revolvers as much as the next revolver enthusiast, but I like to keep my "working/defensive" revolvers in optimal stock condition. If nothing else, using lighter springs means getting lighter tension & force powering the hammer & trigger. I want to ignite the hardest primers under the worst of conditions, since you can never know what quality of primers the ammo company used, or under what conditions you may be forced to use the gun.

Fine for competition guns, where someone may be finely balancing the use of a specific brand of primer cup to enhance the potential for ignition with a lighter hammer strike. It's just that I don't want to reduce the optimal potential for the hammer to ignite primers and I want brisk and firm trigger recover under actual conditions (meaning off the range).

Were you aware that some of the fastest competition revolver shooters have used the heaviest rebound slide springs they could make work in the gun (without damaging the rebound slide stud in the frame)? They wanted to get the fastest trigger recover so they could shoot DA faster.

 

[tomcatt51]

Were you aware that some of the fastest competition revolver shooters have used the heaviest rebound slide springs they could make work in the gun (without damaging the rebound slide stud in the frame)? They wanted to get the fastest trigger recover so they could shoot DA faster.

I keep seeing this repeated ad nauseum. It may be true of Jerrys' exhibition guns. BUT, I shoot with a fella (he's a bonafide gunsmith and builds open/limted USPSA semi-autos and other stuff) who has shot Jerrys' 625 USPSA Revolver at a match chronograph station. He said the action felt just like everybody elses. A stock plus rebound spring would have stood out like the proverbial sore thumb.

 

[Ranger514]

I installed an Apex kit on a new 642 last Fall, which reduced the trigger pull to a smooth nine pounds. No issues during rapid fire drills, and while my accuracy was good before the installation, my groups tightened up slightly after the changeover. The greatest improvement was in reduced muscle fatigue, and I'm happy with the result.

 

[Fastbolt]

...He said the action felt just like everybody elses. A stock plus rebound spring would have stood out like the proverbial sore thumb.

Might depend on how much heavier of a spring was used. I agree it would seem as though it ought to be pretty noticeable if a really heavier one was used (if it didn't bend or break the stud off first).

I've had a couple of older J's brought to me because the owners wanted the guns checked. The first one had a stiffer trigger than I expected to find, but nothing terribly outlandish. Imagine my surprise when I inspected the gun and discovered someone had installed a 17-coil rebound slide spring (instead of a 15-coil spring).

I asked someone I knew at the factory (who used to do revolver work), wondering if & when they'd used a longer slide spring in the short guns. He said it hadn't been something normally done (in his experience), and said the owner was probably lucky the longer spring hadn't bent or broken the frame stud. Once I installed a stock 15-coil spring the owner thought I'd done a trigger job.

I wrote that one off to being a fluke, until I recently had another J-frame brought to me with the owner asking if I could check it. This one didn't feel noticeably heavy when I started my inspection (although it seemed obvious the hand torsion spring was probably broken). Not heavy like the first one had felt. However, I once again found a 17-coil rebound spring in the gun.

Maybe at one time they used the longer slide springs for production? Or, maybe occasionally someone either pulled the wrong spring by reaching into the wrong box on the bench, or the wrong spring ended up mixed in the right box? Dunno.

The point is that I noticed the too-heavy spring in the first gun, but not in the second gun. Weird.