Black powder and aircraft engines

[dovekiller]

Watching the Science channel last night a guy reached into the engine compartment of a Grumman F4F and retrieved what appeared to me to be a 10ga blank cartridge. I know these things were used to help start certain jet engines (B-57) but this is a piston engine here. Anybody can explain?

 

[dovekiller]

Watching the Science channel last night a guy reached into the engine compartment of a Grumman F4F and retrieved what appeared to me to be a 10ga blank cartridge. I know these things were used to help start certain jet engines (B-57) but this is a piston engine here. Anybody can explain?

 

[VAdoublegunner]

I think they were used to start some types piston engines. I seem to recall them being concerned with how many they had left in the old movie "Flight of the Phoenix"

 

[Amici]

I guess you've never watched Flight of the Phoenix - the original; not the Gen-X remake.


The pivotal scene involves Jimmy Stewart trying to start the PISTON (radial) engine with the same system you describe.

The blank generated pressure to turn the engine over; a transition system between someone turning it over via the prop and electric start.

B-57? B- 47, yes; B-58, yes. Never heard of a B-57, however.

 

[Bullman]

Seems I remember reading Boyington's book "Baa Baa Black Sheep" and he mentioned the planes having "shotgun starters" where a blank shotgun shell was used to turn over the engine. Don't really know how it works, but I have heard of it before.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

Guess what? Wiki'ed up FotP and they had this link on Coffman Engine Starters. Man, what you can learn here!

 

[wbraswell]

Amici, the B-57 was a medium jet bomber made by Martin. It had non swept wings, and later versions had a much wider wingspan and were used for spying before the U-2 came along.

 

[feralmerril]

Thats right, they did start some of those big radial engines with cartridges. Not shure what particular ones. Or if they could be either way, maybe a weight savings. I had a old boy I used to work with that flew torpedo bombers tell me about it, wish I asked him why. Maybe I probley did, and forgot the answer.

 

[OKFC05]

Never heard of a B-57, however.

When I was stationed in Sondrestrom, Greenland, we had the B57F long-wing variant make an emergency landing after losing a canopy.

Original use was a twin-engine jet medium bomber, but was re-winged (long) to make a high-altitude reconnaisance aircraft with some difficult flying characteristics. The more power you put on it, the more it tried to dive when at altitude. While it could fly a long time at high altitude on flight idle, it could not dash to safety if attacked.

Although it retained the second seat, the recon version used only one. When the one at Sondrestrom was repaired with a new canopy, I was going to go along on the check ride with the pilot. Unfortunately the base commander got wind of it and threatened to court martial me if I did. Oh, well.

 

[LTC]

I believe the pressure from the cartridge firing turned some sort of a starter that in turn turned the engine over. The explosive force did not go into the engine cylinders.

I would surmise they were aux. starter options when on board battery power was not there or the aircraft was at a remote location with no access to a ground power cart.

LTC

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by wbraswell:
Amici, the B-57 was a medium jet bomber made by Martin. It had non swept wings, and later versions had a much wider wingspan and were used for spying before the U-2 came along.

Thanks for the info.

 

[carguychris]

Originally posted by LTC:
I would surmise they were aux. starter options when on board battery power was not there or the aircraft was at a remote location with no access to a ground power cart.

They were used because the electric starter didn't have enough power to turn over the big radials on its own. More powerful starters would require heavier wiring and batteries, adding more weight, so it was ultimately a weight saving measure. This was an era when aircraft were expected to be able to operate independently of ground facilities such as starter carts, so it was deemed easier to transport extra cartridges than to depend on auxiliary power.

Interestingly, the Soviets managed to work around this problem by designing starters that were driven by compressed air. This fixed two problems: first, compressed air is easier to come by in the bush than electricity, less subject to contamination than gunpowder cartridges, and can be provided by manual labor in a pinch; second, it's not compromised by extreme cold like a lead-acid battery.

Oh yeah, the Martin B-57 Canberra was based on the English Electric Canberra bomber developed in the late 40s for the Royal Air Force. However, the USAF versions had a much longer service life as RB-57 reconaissance planes than as B-57 bombers (a situation comparable to the Navy's RA-5 Vigilante), and the design departed quite drastically from the original English Electric design in the plane's later years.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Curious to know why they still used black powder with its susceptibility to moisture?

 

[john traveler]

Black powder pyrotechnic loads are always weathersealed against moisture contamination.

Smokeless propellant on the other hand, to give a reliable PUSH instead of a sharp explosion, would require very slow burning propellant, with complecations such as large granules with difficult ignition, incomplete combustion, etc. Black powder has proven to be still useful cannon charge igniters, rocket motor igniters and other applications where it's ease of ignition is required.

 

[ancient-one]

In WW2 the Navy had several AC that used them. We had to remove the cartridge after the start because they were likely to swell and stick in the chamber. That was especially dangerous on the F4U because of the position of the cartridge chamber.
If you ran out of shells you put a leather cup over the end of one of the blades. The cup had a long heavy bungee cord which you attached to a tug. Some lucky person got to hold the prop blade back while the bungee was stretched by the tug. When you let go of the blade you hoped it would rotate the engine enough to start and that you didn't lose your balance and stumble into the prop. Also the person on the tug had a chance of being hit by the cord and cup.

 

[walter o]

Also know of some ferm tractors thet used ablank shotgun load to start them . No other starter built on the tractor.It is not unusial foe tanker trucks that hall gas to have air powered starter motors.I am not sure But i think the p38 had cartridge starters .

 

[Gutpile Charlie]

Originally posted by ancient-one:
In WW2 the Navy had several AC that used them. We had to remove the cartridge after the start because they were likely to swell and stick in the chamber. That was especially dangerous on the F4U because of the position of the cartridge chamber.
If you ran out of shells you put a leather cup over the end of one of the blades. The cup had a long heavy bungee cord which you attached to a tug. Some lucky person got to hold the prop blade back while the bungee was stretched by the tug. When you let go of the blade you hoped it would rotate the engine enough to start and that you didn't lose your balance and stumble into the prop. Also the person on the tug had a chance of being hit by the cord and cup.

Damn ancient one...I'd have liked to have seen that bungee cord thing. Never even heard of that one!

I have started aircraft using the old, reliable, "Armstrong starter". This was not bad on 65, 85 and even 100 hp engines. Never tried it with anything bigger. (pssssttttt! Armstrong starter means "hand propping")

 

[ancient-one]

Gutpile Charlie
It was possible to hand prop the old "Yellow Peril" Stearman but it wasn't a smart thing to do. If things were not in the correct position they had a nasty habit of kicking back. It was a lot of work but much safer to wind up the old hand inertia starter.

 

[cass]

Originally posted by Amici:

Originally posted by wbraswell:
Amici, the B-57 was a medium jet bomber made by Martin. It had non swept wings, and later versions had a much wider wingspan and were used for spying before the U-2 came along.

Thanks for the info.

Google Earth : 32deg09'40.93"N / 110deg50'08.09"W. There are three on the pad at the graveyard.

 

[dovekiller]

Wow, the stuff you can learn here. I thought that was going to be a tough question. Lots of guys here with actual hands-on experience and then a wiki article. Amazing! Thanks to all.

The reason I mentioned the B-57 was because I actually watched one being fired up with one of those shotgun starters in Viet Nam. As I recall there was quite a cloud of smoke.