Body shop estimates or guesses or laziness

[Ματθιας]

A neighbor got into a fender bender in his 2019 Fusion. It didn't seem too bad, the car is still drivable. Driver's side hit. It was his fault as he pulled out in front of another car making a right turn. He isn't going through insurance, why, I don't know, none of my business.

Anyway, he asked me to help him find parts so he could fix it himself. At that point, I hadn't seen the car. The way he described the damage it sounded like it was just plastic front end parts. When he told me the headlight was cracked and misaligned, I told him to go take it to a body shop and have an estimate done to find out what it really needs as I suspected that there's more damage than what he says.

That was two weeks ago.

This afternoon, he called me over to look at the estimate and his car. The first thing I noticed that the whole front end moved over to the right about 1/8 -1/4 inch causing all the panels to be misaligned from the fenders forward. The passenger side fender was buckled noticeably on the wheel arch, from everything moving. I also noticed that the hood was folded over the driver's side headlight, not enough to be very obvious, but enough to crease and crack the paint.

None of that was mentioned on the estimate. How they missed the hood and the fender, is beyond me. I asked if they opened the hood to have look. He said no, that the estimator just took pictures of the outside. Is that the way things are, now, or just laziness? Maybe they didn't open the hood because they were afraid they wouldn't get it closed...

The estimate came out to $2700 and some change(!), not including the hood, fender and whatever hidden damage. I'm guessing it needs time on the frame machine, too. I'm thinking the final bill would be $4K+.

Crazy prices. Crazy how fragile newer cars really are.

I told him just to drive it as is and keep his money.


edit; this is a bodyshop on the insurance approval list.

 

[SMSgt]

IMO, he needs to shop elsewhere.

 

[armadillo]

Last month a lady backed into my 2021 Tacoma in a parking lot. She crumpled the little plastic insert in the bumper which held one of the warning sensors. She did not damage any of the metal parts or the tail light.

Her insurance covered all the repair cost. I took it to a major body shop they recommended. The initial estimate was $800. When I picked it up the bill was $3,700 not including the rent car they gave me for a week. It seems that there were a couple of computer modules behind there that had to be replaced.

 

[Ματθιας]

Hidden damage. I think there are sensors in the bumper cover. I have no idea how much those things are.

I'll take an older, primitive, vehicle over a new anything.

 

[GaryS]

Initial estimates are rarely completely accurate. Supplements are the norm, not the exception. As was explained to me by an appraiser some years ago, they are not allowed to open any door, the hood, or the decklid. Nor are they allowed to crawl under or jack up the vehicle.

As a result, they are limited to what they can see.

My 2019 Tacoma was rear ended at a stop light. Initially it looked like the bumper just needed to be aligned, but the appraiser wrote up a bunch of stuff and said it needed to be repaired at a body shop.

The total ended up being over $3,000.00 dollars as the tow bumper is one peice and it was bent. The rest of mostly labor and some brackets.

Car insurance is somewhat like health insurance. The insurance company does not pay what the entire estimate is, the body shop has to accept what they will pay. Some insurance companies (Progressive for one) require aftermarket parts be used if available. That can increase the labor required if the parts are not to OEM specifications. Which they rarely are. That's part of why some companies can offer lower rates.

My company specifies OEM parts only because in the long run it's less aggravation and cost for them.

The body guy I used before we moved was very good at arguing with the insurance companies. Shortly before we moved he hired a retired appraiser to deal with parts ordering and insurance issues. That freed him up to do body work.

 

[ACORN]

A few years ago one of our company owned vehicles was in an accident. An "adjuster" contacted me, and had me download an app on my phone, and take 3 photos of the truck. They wrote the estimate from those. How can you expect to get an accurate estimate from 3 exterior photos?

 

[Huskerguy]

In my younger days I was in auto collision and taught it at the college level for 15 years.

I can't say what the thinking of the shop is but I am guessing there are some notations on the estimate. It sounds to me like the radiator support and front aprons (all welded together) has moved. This is going to affect lots of things including POSSIBLY wheel alignment.

They use lasers and computers to determine where every control point of a vehicle is supposed to be. Some places will do what is called a quick estimate and give you an idea that yes there is structural damage but not exactly the extent of it in some cases.

We have a technical college in our town, I used to be the Director of it, and they work on customer vehicles for the cost of parts and materials. Takes them longer obviously. He might check around and see if something like that is available where he lives. The old days of a tram gauge and tape measure are long gone.

 

[NYlakesider]

Years back I had my own method for a quick estimate on a body repair cost.

It started out with figure out a number and double it.

Then it went to figure out a number and quadruple that.

Now to use my very dated method I wonder what the multiplier would be to get a number. Definitely in the double digit category!

 

[Breakaway500]

There can be LOTS of hidden damage on todays plastic cars. I once had a 2005 Chrysler LHS drive in that was hit in the back. It didn't look bad and the appraisal was just under $1k. When I put it on the lift, both rear unibody frame sections were crushed over 6" and the plastic rear bumper had all popped back out so you could not really tell. A supplement totalled the car.
I'm seeing electric cars with minimal collision damage totalled very easily as the shock wave from the collision is damaging all sorts of things that are not visual and the insurance companies are just writing them off.

 

[Tom S.]

Hidden damage. I think there are sensors in the bumper cover. I have no idea how much those things are.

I'll take an older, primitive, vehicle over a new anything.

Certainly your right, but you are also far more likely to walk away from an accident in a newer car than an old one. The major cause of death in an auto accident is internal trauma, caused by the extremely rapid deceleration caused by the sudden stop an accident causes. One minute you're doing 45 mph and a nano second later, 0 mph. Your internal organs slam against your skeleton and any other solid thing your body might be in contact with, such as the steering wheel and the damage occurs. Cars have crumple zones designed to slow down the deceleration process. The same can be said of air bags, which are NOT cushions but rather collapsible designed to slow your momentum by rapidly inflating then slowly (relatively speaking) collapsing.

People who say 'they' don't build them like they used to are 100% correct - 'they' build them much safer! Despite thehuge number of drivers on the road compared to say 50 years ago, traffic fatalities are fewer. In 1965, traffic deaths numbered 47,089 while in 2023 they numbered 40.990. To put that in proper perspective, deaths in 1965 averaged 24.24 per 100,000 people while in 2023 that figure was less than half at 12.06 per 100,000.

 

[Jebus35745]

If the body shop is on a program with an insurance company, when the car is scheduled to be worked on there is a complete tear down of the vehicle and a somewhat complete estimate is done. If the car is considered unsafe to drive when first loaded at, it would be left at the shop and you would leave in a rental. Opening a hood to look under that can't be safely shut and latched is a no-no, unsafe for driving.

It's not laziness, just protocol to wait till being worked on to find all the damage and determine if the car is fixable or totaled. The technician would be paid for the tear down if totaled. Could take couple hours to list each part and everything that's bent or crushed. With digital cameras, lots of pictures can be taken. Insurance companies stop unannounced and spot check estimates to make sure it's legitimate. What a rat race, glad I retired from fixing them. Larry

 

[jeffrefrig]

A few years ago one of our company owned vehicles was in an accident. An "adjuster" contacted me, and had me download an app on my phone, and take 3 photos of the truck. They wrote the estimate from those. How can you expect to get an accurate estimate from 3 exterior photos?

Okay, this is where my "mess with people" kicks in! And, mess is not the real word, but the Ding sensor would put me on hold for some time!
You take 3 photos, but use a different colored vehicle for one of the pictures. It may take a little longer, but you just tell them you're not good at insurance stuff, so an adjuster may have to come out. It's part of my civil rights to be stupid! Oh, yeah, take the third pic and put it in with the others so they don't pigeon hole you!

 

[GaryS]

For a while insurance companies were writing off Toyota Tacomas because frame damage required a replacement and there was a year backlog on new frames.

You can't just put a vehicle on the frame machine any longer as it's part of the safety system.

But, I expect you know that better than do I.

There can be LOTS of hidden damage on todays plastic cars. I once had a 2005 Chrysler LHS drive in that was hit in the back. It didn't look bad and the appraisal was just under $1k. When I put it on the lift, both rear unibody frame sections were crushed over 6" and the plastic rear bumper had all popped back out so you could not really tell. A supplement totalled the car.
I'm seeing electric cars with minimal collision damage totalled very easily as the shock wave from the collision is damaging all sorts of things that are not visual and the insurance companies are just writing them off.

 

[boykinlp]

There can be LOTS of hidden damage on todays plastic cars. I once had a 2005 Chrysler LHS drive in that was hit in the back. It didn't look bad and the appraisal was just under $1k. When I put it on the lift, both rear unibody frame sections were crushed over 6" and the plastic rear bumper had all popped back out so you could not really tell. A supplement totalled the car.
I'm seeing electric cars with minimal collision damage totalled very easily as the shock wave from the collision is damaging all sorts of things that are not visual and the insurance companies are just writing them off.

That's CRAZY, but not surprising!
Larry

 

[Tom S.]

That's CRAZY, but not surprising!
Larry

It's not anything really new though. In 1990 when Pontiac and Chevrolet came out with the Trans-Port and Lumina APV respectively, both used what GM termed a space frame that all the body panels connected to. Body shops and insurance companies quickly found out that no one was prepared to fix a damaged one, even in a relatively minor accident, because that space frame was easily tweaked and none of the replacement panels thus would fit. Eventually some place invested in expensive laser machines that could be used to restore the frame but before that, many were scrapped with what appeared to be minor damage.

 

[Jebus35745]

Truck frames need to be replaced unless it's minor damage. The frame is too tough/thick to pull on normal frame machines. I never had to do one myself, luckily I was at a dealership with mechanics on 2 of them. Larry

 

[GaryS]

Toyota and I'm sure the other manufacturers have specific instructions on that. I think that their concern is that the frame has sacrificed itself to save the occupants and can't be safely pulled and reused.

Truck frames need to be replaced unless it's minor damage. The frame is too tough/thick to pull on normal frame machines. I never had to do one myself, luckily I was at a dealership with mechanics on 2 of them. Larry

 

[LVSteve]

The old versus new argument when it comes to cars in accidents is not new. Take a look at this video where a 2004 Renault hatchback is crashed head-on into a 1991 Volvo 940 wagon. Hint, don't bet on the Volvo.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDyeWofcLY[/ame]

 

[Ματθιας]

Certainly your right, but you are also far more likely to walk away from an accident in a newer car than an old one. The major cause of death in an auto accident is internal trauma, caused by the extremely rapid deceleration caused by the sudden stop an accident causes. One minute you're doing 45 mph and a nano second later, 0 mph. Your internal organs slam against your skeleton and any other solid thing your body might be in contact with, such as the steering wheel and the damage occurs. Cars have crumple zones designed to slow down the deceleration process. The same can be said of air bags, which are NOT cushions but rather collapsible designed to slow your momentum by rapidly inflating then slowly (relatively speaking) collapsing.

People who say 'they' don't build them like they used to are 100% correct - 'they' build them much safer! Despite thehuge number of drivers on the road compared to say 50 years ago, traffic fatalities are fewer. In 1965, traffic deaths numbered 47,089 while in 2023 they numbered 40.990. To put that in proper perspective, deaths in 1965 averaged 24.24 per 100,000 people while in 2023 that figure was less than half at 12.06 per 100,000.

I'm more likely to get in a fender bender than a catastrophic accident. I don't want a car I own totaled over, what used to be, a minor accident.

If you want a new vehicle, for whatever reason, have at it!

I'll keep my late 70's F150 and CrownVic. If I get in a fender bender, I can fix those. A fender bender like my neighbor, not so much.

 

[Ματθιας]

The point I was trying to make was that obvious damage was was missed on the estimate.

And my neighbor told them, supposedly, I wasn't there, that he was paying out of his own pocket. I would think that the'd give him a more thorough estimate.

BTW when I took my CV to the Ford Dealership for bodywork, somebody hit the car in the parking lot and cracked the header panel, they put the car on the rack and noted prior damage like a ding I had on a panel. That was a complete estimate.