Bought a lb. of Lil-gun, mistake?

[Bionic_Man]

Bought a pound of Lil-Gun, after seeing load date for .44 mag at the shop. Got home to read reviews, and all this talk about flame cutting has me rethinking using this powder for reloads intended for my 629. So, use it as I intended, or limit (.44 mag) for lever action rifle use only, or give it to a friend who reload 410 shotgun? Maybe buy a 300 BLK upper, and use the powder for reloading this cartridge?

 

[venomballistics]

It's just a pound.
It's not like that will saw the gun in half with mystical bandsaw powers.
ease back on it and leave some room on the peddle and it'll be no worse than any other.

 

[jmmitc06]

Well based on a very quick google search of various powders + flame cutting (H110, Win 296, unique, bullseye, 2400) and looking at the number of hits that were returned and the relevance of the results on the first page (my opinion and I didn't read the posts, just the summary returned by the search), it looks like just about every powder has posts claiming it causes flame cutting. Therefore, I would be hesitant to go on the posts alone.

Flame cutting is increased by lighter bullets, so I would believe avoiding light bullets with heavy charges would be sufficient to alleviate the problem. Buying an upper for using this powder alone turns a possible ~$30 mistake into a much more expensive endeavor, unless you are wanting the upper anyways. If I were you, I wouldn't max out loads and use heavier bullets and consider not buying that powder in the future.

 

[azlou66]

Your only going to get 300-400 rounds out of the pound, if your loading heavies I doubt you'll hurt your 629 unless you are shooting max + loads under light for caliber bullets.
I have never used LG my preferred 44 mag powder is AA9 or for max effect H110/W296, I would like to find 300MP to try.
ETA: I have read glowing reviews about Lil Gun loads in lever guns.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Lil'Gun

I'm still working on the pound I bought. Tried it in several cartridges with nothing definitive one way or the other. Most load data does tend to show Lil'Gun has lower pressure for the same max. velocity, compared to other powders. That would seem like a good thing.

.

 

[MichiganScott]

Flame cutting is self limiting and occurs with all powders and all bullet weights to some degree. Some combinations are worse than others.

When examining a revolver for sale that is claimed to be unfired, check it out closely. If there is evidence of any cutting at all, it's been fired more than the seller is letting on.

 

[ironhead7544]

It will take more than one pound of powder to hurt the revolver. If you must shoot a lot of heavy loads, then IMR4227 seems easy on the M29.

I use light loads for practice and save the heavies for hunting. Saves wear and tear on the gun, brass and you.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

My personal experience:

I worked up to max listed by Hornady with Lil Gun in 44 mag pushing 240gr XTP's with my 629-6. Admittedly, I have only fired about 25 rds of the hot stuff, but found no evidence of cutting on my revolver. Part of the reason is that I have been spending more time at the loading bench lately than at the range by a long shot. I did however notice the residue was a much lighter color than other powders, more grayish-white than dark gray. Not sure what that means or if it is of any importance.

I am a fairly new reloader, been at it about a year and a half now. I have been experimenting (within the parameters of loading data published by manufacturers) and have found AA#9 to be terrific with my 44's. I do not yet have a chrony, so I'm not getting the entire picture... but the accuracy I am getting with AA#9 has been better than with Lil Gun for me.. Maybe just me having the good day/bad day at the range..Time will tell...

Back to the Lil Gun... My brother loaded some 357 mag (again working up and withing published parameters) for his 66-1. I was with him at the range and did notice some increase in the flame cut on the backstrap of his 66. He was pushing 158gr XTPs.

This makes me wonder if the newer revolvers are constructed of a different/tougher recipe of steel??? IDK...

I post my findings because I too have been questioning using Lil Gun in my revolvers based on reviews I have read online. My current plan of action is to proceed with caution and if it works OK, I intend to use it...

 

[dla]

Just shoot it

Load them and shoot - report back. My 44 mag didn't come apart because of LilGun. Gives top velocities.

 

[buck460XVR]

This is from Bob Baker of Freedom Arms, manufacturer of some of the finest revolvers currently made. I put more faith in his opinion than random internet posters......others are free to do otherwise.

We have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun. According to customers, some had as few as 30 rounds using Lil Gun through them, some had several hundred. Before we figured out what was happening one customer had sent his gun in for a new barrel. Then 600 rounds later it came back for another new barrel.

A couple years ago we did a test with a M83, .357 Mag. using Hornady 180 gr. bullets. We loaded 50 rds. of three different loads. One was a heavy H-110 load and the other two both used Lil Gun in different quantities.

We fired the H-110 loads first, then cut off the threaded end of the barrel. Rethreaded the barrel and shot one of the Lil Gun loads then rethreaded the barrel and shot the last Lil Gun load.

We found even the light load of Lil Gun caused the gun to get extremely hot. The heavy Lil Gun load had the gun so hot the only place we could touch the gun was on the grips and they were very hot.

Under magnification the surface appeared to have heated to a point of flowing using the Lil Gun loads and the heavy load was worse than the light load. This is probably due to Lil Gun having about 10% more nitro glycerin in it than H-110.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

^^^precisely why I proceed with due diligence in caution^^^

Bought my pound of Lil Gun before seeing info like this. Saw good numbers in my manuals, and h110/w296 was unavailable as ever at that time...

Anyone interested in a partial pound of Lil Gun?? (kidding of course)

 

[Jeff423]

If you're not shooting it in a Freedom Arms you should be OK.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You can tike my advice or you can reject it, either way I won't defend what I'm saying because the arguments aren't worth the time.

I like Lil'Gun and I feel it's an extremely accurate powder for magnum handloads and the 22 Hornet. I will not use Lil'Gun in ammo meant for revolvers because of the excessive heat generated and the possible forcing cone damage. I limit the magnum ammo for rifles and my 1894C just eats up 170gr and 180gr ammo made with it. It seems to generate more velocity with less pressure than other powders in it's class. That is extremely unusual but it seems to be true with Lil'Gun.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Lil'Gun

...Admittedly, I have only fired about 25 rds of the hot stuff, but found no evidence of cutting on my revolver.

You're good for another 24 rounds, just don't shoot that 50th round.

.

 

[Bionic_Man]

As always plenty of learning for me. I'm in the process of getting a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. Started the 10 day count down. So my current thinking is use the factory ammo for my 629, and use the reload for the Marlin. And take temp reading with my high quality Harbor Freight digital thermometer and check out this excessive heat idea.

As a side note, bless the web for turning me to Lil Gun for 300 BLK. I really want a 300 Blackout upper, so what better excuse than to have ammo but no gun, to justify the gun? Egg - chicken, or chicken - egg? I've done worst things like buy my first gun. For example; gun - gun - gun... - new safe- gun etc...

It was the Freedom Arms on the web that initially got me worried.

As alway, thank you all for giving me my way forward. Stand by because I may ask, how hot is too hot?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

No reason to buy factory ammo for the S&W M629. Even in this shortage I'm sure you can fin at least one pound of powder that you can use from the handful of choices.

In the 44 Magnum I really like IMR4227 but Accurate 4100 is also very good. You can use Accurate #9, Alliant 2400, Alliant Power Pro 300-MP, Ramshot Enforcer, W296/H110 and maybe another I can't think of right now...

 

[buck460XVR]

5-6 yeas ago, Lil' Gun powder was heralded as the holy grail for magnum handgun ammo on internet forums. Higher velocities than H110/W296, half the pressure, no need for magnum primers and could be safely downloaded. Everything you want in a magnum handgun powder and then some. Like everyone else I jumped on the bandwagon.

If you must shoot a lot of heavy loads, then IMR4227 seems easy on the M29.

This was my thinkin' too. Creating only half the pressure, I could still shoot legitimate Magnum loads and still be soft on my Smiths. But recoil was just as harsh with Lil' Gun at magnum velocities as H110/W296. I wondered how the pressures could be so low and still produce the recoil. If the recoil was just as harsh, that meant the guns were taking just as much beating also. Revolvers don't wear out from the case expanding in the chamber under pressure(unless an overload), they wear out from the pounding they take.

My 44 mag didn't come apart because of LilGun. Gives top velocities.

My .357s, .44s and .460 didn't come apart either. But velocities were only marginally higher than with H110/W296 and accuracy was not as good. Since I load for accuracy and not velocity, this in itself was enough for me to switch. But then there's the heat issue. Didn't take long before me and everyone else that shot my guns at the range could tell the dramatic difference in temps between shooting ammo charged with Lil' Gun as opposed to ammo loaded with other powders. Guns we could shoot all day loaded with ammo charged with H110/W296 or IMR4227, would have be set aside and let cool when shot with ammo loaded with Lil' Gun, so one could stand to touch/shoot them. This was not just revolvers, but handgun caliber carbines as well. That made the decision for me, even before the concerns of premature forcing cone erosion came out. Then, when those concerns came out, my experience with the excessive heat, told me the concerns were probably legitimate. If it got so I could feel excessive heat being created when many rounds were shot, it meant that excessive heat was being created with every shot. One did not have to shoot till the gun melted down before some kind of damage was being done.

This is why I don't tell folks to ignore their concerns and just use Lil' Gun. The concerns are legitimate and one needs to consider them when choosing a powder. If you want to disregard those concerns because you like the powder, so be it. But don't tell others they should just stick their head in the sand and ignore the risk. They need to decide for themselves if the benefits of Lil' Gun outweigh the risk of damage. To me, even if the risks are miniscule, there are other options out there that perform just as well that don't have the same risks. Easy choice. I still have almost a full pound of Lil' gun in the cabinet. I keep it thinking I'll use it up in the carbines, but as of yet, since my revolver loads work so well in them, I haven't made carbine specific ammo.


As I said, 5-6 years ago, Lil' Gun was the number one powder talked about on online forums when it came to reloading for magnum handguns. Now, you barely ever hear it mentioned. There's a reason for that.

 

[dla]

The concerns are legitimate and one needs to consider them when choosing a powder. If you want to disregard those concerns because you like the powder, so be it. But don't tell others they should just stick their head in the sand and ignore the risk.

There are concerns and there are facts. I might listen more to those concerns if there were some facts to back them up.

A hot gun is a "concern". Verified damage would be a fact. Hot to touch is meaningless with metal.

The only verified fact that I'm aware of is with Freedom arms 475 cal revolvers.

So if somebody could post some actual useful information on the damage LilGun supposedly causes on S&W 44 mag revolvers, I'd be educated.

 

[buck460XVR]

There are concerns and there are facts. I might listen more to those concerns if there were some facts to back them up.

A hot gun is a "concern". Verified damage would be a fact. Hot to touch is meaningless with metal.

The only verified fact that I'm aware of is with Freedom arms 475 cal revolvers.

So if somebody could post some actual useful information on the damage LilGun supposedly causes on S&W 44 mag revolvers, I'd be educated.

Did you even read the post with Bob Bakers statement? He said the test was with .357 mag and that they " have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun."

Sooooo, if there is damage in .357 revolvers and there is damage in FA .475 revolvers, and there are facts to prove it..... do you really think .44s are immune? Again, you can shoot whatever you want to outta your revolvers. If in your opinion there are no risks and you like the performance of Lil' Gun, then by all means go for it. Just don't tell others to just follow your example without research and consideration. Unless you can prove that you are more of an expert than Bob Baker on revolvers and their damage, you are just another random internet poster. I am not telling you or the OP NOT to use Lil' Gun, I am only saying one needs to be aware of the concerns. When Alliant, maker of BlueDot powder came out with warnings about using it in .357 and .41, folks on the internet cried "hogwash, I've been using it for years with no concerns, it is perfectly safe!" Yep, more random inter posters that know more than the experts.

To me a "hot" firearm is a concern, especially when I shoot extended session at the range. If you are one that shoots only a cylinder or two at a time, then you may not have a concern. But that heat is created from someplace and at it's ignition point is always hot, while the frame and the barrel take a while. So while "hot to touch" is not sign of metal damage, it is a sign that excessive heat is being created....somewhere. A concern to me, not so much to you. I do not have a problem with that. I really don't care about your guns, only mine. My problem is not that you use Lil' Gun, but that you are telling others to use it just because you do.

Again, as with all aspects of handloading, one needs to use their own judgement on what is best and safe for them. I see folks all the time bragging about how they always load past max and it's perfectly safe, because modern load manuals are "lawyer-ed down". While that may be fine for them and their firearms, it is not correct to tell others to do as they do, without considering the risks. Same goes for using unpublished loads with oddball powder/bullet/caliber combos. Sorry, but "hey, you should do this cause I do" just don't cut it for me.

I've been taught than a hot cooktop will burn my hand. I also have learned that a camp fire will burn me if I'm not careful. I don't need to touch the side of a hot woodstove to realize I might get burnt.

 

[ironhead7544]

It will take more than one pound of powder to hurt the revolver. If you must shoot a lot of heavy loads, then IMR4227 seems easy on the M29.

I use light loads for practice and save the heavies for hunting. Saves wear and tear on the gun, brass and you.

I might be wrong about the Lil' Gun. I havent really heard of any flame cutting as mentioned here. A lot of people really like Lil' Gun and use a lot of it. I think I would do more research before using it.