British No.4 Mk1 Info Wanted

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bmhiii

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British No.4 Mk1 Info Wanted -Thanks

Anyone have any experience with a British No.4 Mk1? I saw a couple today and was a little intrigued. One (or the 2) was a rifle that had been sent somewhere, reconditioned and never reissued, whatever that means. I'm going to take a closer look and would like to know what to look for. Also, any idea on fair market value? I know this is a tough question being how all I know is what the rifle is, but any guidance would be muchly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
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I'm not exactly sure what you want to know, but if you can get your hands on a copy of The British Service Lee, by Ian Skennerton, it should give you most of the information about the rifle. The ISBN is 095974388X.

I would think that most large libraries would have it.

Buck
 
I have a number of the Enfields and they are really nice rifles. My best and "newest" is a 1943 Canadian No.4 Mk I*.

These rifles have been available from time to time on the surplus market since WWII and they have never been priced too high. When I first started acquiring them, they could be had for about $100 for an average one from one of the main importers. I am assuming now they would be closer to the $200 range for a nice one.

From time to time British ammo becomes available quite cheap. The cartridge can be reloaded, but it will only withstand a few loadings in that the chambers are all "oversize". This was done to insure positivie feeding under battlefield conditions, however upon firing, the brass is stretched considerably and resizing tends to shorten case life.

The rifles have proven popular with some that like to do the "military bench rest shoots." They are easily obtained, are reasonably accurate and surplus ammo has been available.

Many praise the virtue of the action and magazine. It holds ten rounds and is easily topped off from above via stripper clip. (Even though the magazine is easily removable, it is not really intended to be loaded that way.)

The bolt is very smooth and you can rapid fire very easily.

The headspace on the SMLE rifles is set by the "bolt head". Yes, this piece is removable and they are made in various sizes to adjust headspace. It is highly unlikely that one would ever have to do this, however you should be aware of it. Each bolt head has a numberic "size" value stamped on it.

If you would really like more information, just Google them. There is a lot of information available.

Go ahead an buy one if the price and condition are right. They're not making any more of them and you can't have too many!
 
I don't know what I want to know either. :D

What kind of markings do I need to look for to identify anything about it?

I guess I would like to find out when it was made, who made it...

Thanks for the info already supplied!
 
While I was posting I see Haggis also made a post. I was trying to think of the guy that is the real "guru" of SMLE rifles. Yes, Ian Skennerton is the man.

He is an Aussie chap and he always has a table set up at the "big" Tulsa gunshows. I try to chat with him each time I see him. He publishes quite a bit of information on these rifles. His word is gospel.
 
Man, I didn't realize the price on these things had gone up this much. I did a search on bookfinder and this is what I found:

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?a...minprice=&maxprice=&mode=advanced&st=sr&ac=qr

If you want to e-mail me any questions, I can try to find an answer for you from my copy. I'm heading out on vacation Thursday, but if you can send me something tomorrow via e-mail, I'll try to get answers before I leave.

Buck
 
I also have a couple, One which I just got last year was an unissued No4Mk1, Look at the bolt handle, The serial # is also on there, They are good shooters that can reach out and touch something 400 yards away pretty darn easy, The No4Mk1 was also made into a 2nd WW sniper rifle which was pretty well known to do it's job well.
I have seen really fine examples in the 4-500 range,
I have also seen them down as low as 125 in the past year for sporterized units.
The Sniper version stamped with a "T" will fetch a couple grand pretty easy.
Peter
 
I have become aware that I have asked for kinda unanswerable info. The next time I'm in the shop, I will look the rifles over, make notes of any markings, try and describe each one, then I will start asking more intelligent questions.

I will also do more web research after taking a closer look at the rifles.

Sorry for the ambiguous post, I will strive to do better! :D

Thanks for the input!
 
British SMLE

Hi:
In the distance past there were two models of No. 4s that was imported into this Country.
One had an adjustable rear sight.
One had a fixed peep rear sight that was "L" shape (simular to the early U.S. M1 .30cal. Carbines) one leg of the "L" was for 300yds. and the other leg was for 600 yds.
Anyone know the # of these Models?
Jimmy
 
A Few Notes on Markings

You said that at least one of the rifles had been reconditioned. The Brits called this "Factory Thorough Repair" and stamped "FTR" on the receiver to indicate this had been done. Usually there is a month and year stamped next to the FTR to indicate when it was done. A lot of these were FTR'd and put into storage, and eventually sold off as surplus when the Brits went to their version of the FN FAL.

Here in the US, Savage made rifles seem to command a premium. These are marked with a squared S, which some folks mistake for a 5. On a nice all original one, you will see the square S on just about every component. A Savage made rifle will also have a C in the serial number, for Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts, the site of the Savage factory.

The Canadian version was made at the Long Branch Arsenal and are marked with an LB superimposed. These are also fine rifles and again have the LB on all major components. A Long Branch will have an L in the serial number as well.

If you see ROF, for "Royal Ordnance Factory" it is English made.

That should help get you started. If you note down any markings that you need help with and report them here, someone will be able to assist you.

A very good website (it happens to be Canadian) is www.303British.com

Jimmy J:
The simple flip sight was a war time expedient as a substitute for the more complex adjustable sight which took more time and effort to manufacture. There were a couple of other such mods made to speed up production. These features were on the No. 4 Mk I*, the * meaning it was a modification of the No. 4 Mk I. During and after the war, the flip sights were often replaced with the adjustable sight as spares became available.
 
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Buying Skennerton's book is like buying the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson-you will refer to it constantly and NEVER regret the money you paid for it. Skennerton has his own website, http:///www.skennerton.com so you can order direct from him.
JimmyJ-the No. 4 Mark I-the WWII version-came with 4 different rear sights, the "L" flip up was the last and simplest-wartime expedient manufacture. One caveat about Lee Enfield is that like the M-1 Garand finding one that is all "correct" is a VERY rare occurence.
They were used, reused, repaired and reworked and reissued as much as necessary to keep them on the front lines, also in WWII many of the smaller parts were subcontracted and there are many variations, all "correct". A rifle marked "FTR"-"Factory Thorough Repair" is one that was rebuilt by British Army Ordnance at the depot level. The WWII No. 4 Mark I
comes in two main versions, the UK made No. 4 Mark I and the North American made No.
4 Mark I*. A * in British practice denotes a change in a model that is noticeable-think
M1911 and M1911A1.
Also try http://www.gunboards.com and http://milsurpafterhours.com, both have Lee Enfield/British firearms forums.
 
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Thanks everyone. Now I have some info to go on when I go look. It'll be a week or so and I will report back my findings.

Thanks again,
 
Good Luck Finding One!

I forgot to say that the most obvious marking on a Savage No. 4 is "US Property" prominently on the receiver, indicating that these were part of the US lend-lease program to England.

Good luck finding one, they are great rifles. I think that prices have gone up quite a bit recently. I have a couple nice original ones that I got for less than $100 each, but that was maybe 15 or so years ago. If I sold them, I would expect to get $300 - $400 for each.

One thing that you should look for is matching serial numbers on the bolt and receiver. These always bring more as they usually headspace ok.

If you just want one to shoot, it seems like decent sporterized examples are still out there. I bought one (a Long Branch) a couple of years back for $69. You still see these for under $100, often surprisingly skillfully modified.
 
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Even if the headspace is generous, you can adjust it by going to a longer bolt head as already pointed out here on the #4 rifle (higher numbered bolt head). One of the #'d bolt heads is tougher to find than the others (#2 size?)

It's been a quite awhile since I've owned a #4 myself, prefering the No1 and earlier, but was shooting my brothers LongBranch #4 over the weekend. I had forgotten how good that rear aperture sight was!

Or if you reload the cartridge, just let the first fireing fireform to the chamber dimentions and then neck size only. That's what I do for my No1 rifles.
In essence you are then headspaceing on the shoulder instead of the rim just like any rimless cartridge and will get longer case life and potentially better accuracy.

The #4 chambers weren't cut oversize, but many were cut to the extreme limit of the allowable dimention however to make use of dirty, corroded and potentially out of spec ammo that was sometimes the norm in combat situations.

No doubt some will be found with dimentions over what was to be allowed, but with the many FTR programs. Many of them having gone through the Ishapore Arsenal in post independance days, where QC could be spotty at times.
 
They are fun to shoot. I own a Number 4 mark 2 made in 1955 ( last year of production). The stock and metal parts have a wonderful patina and the bore is bright. I would guess it was carried a lot and shot very little. I paid around $75 for mine in the mid 90's. The unusual thing is the bolt head is a 3 and I would have thought in the condition the bore was in it would have been a 0 or 1
 
A Few Notes on Mil Surp Ammo

Military surplus .303 used to be so plentiful and cheap, that alone was a big selling point of these rifles. Sadly, it looks like those days are gone.

You still find little pockets of it here and there, sometimes it's very cheap. A local store had a huge ammo can with .303 in it that I used to go pick through when I had time. They had a lot of exotic and sometimes rare .303 in that can. One day, it was all gone, bought out in the ammo panic of 2009. If you see any HXP (Greek) headstamped .303 for a decent price, grab it. It is boxer primed and reloadable.

One thing to remember when shooting surplus is that it is very possibly corrosive, especially if the headstamp is pre 1960.

Recently, a lot of POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) headstamped .303 has been imported. I have never shot any of this myself, but it has a very poor reputation. If you are tempted to buy some at a low price, you may want to start with a small quantity and see how it shoots. People who have shot it complain of hang-fires, misfires, and lousy accuracy if it ever does go off.
 
Lee-Enfield information

Here is a site that has always had much information re the various LE rifles, tho I read it less these days:

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forums/70/t/The-Lee-Enfield-Forum.html

In searching for a rifle or carbine, I have always looked for matching numbers on receiver, bolt handle, forestock and possibly magazine. Also have looked for [and not found] an example with the long buttstock, which should be easy to spot among its shorter compadres.

Good reading and good hunting!

Best,

Dyson
 
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