Broke my M&P 45 ... again

[Luis_R.]

So last year I bought a 4" 45. I fired about 400rds thru it and after qualifying with it carried it for work. Some time around March of this year, my wife and I were out shooting with her co-worker and her husband. After a couple of hours I have a malfunction (failure to extract and double feed) without much thought I clear it and fire again. I have the same malfunction and this time I stop and look. I don't see anything wrong, but decide that maybe the ammo is the culprit so I use different stuff. I get the same issue. I know my duty ammo and mag are good so I use one of those mags - same thing. I clear the gun and lock it open and notice that the extractor does not look quite right. I ask my wife to clear her gun so I can take a look at it (she carries a M&P 9 and so does her co-worker). I look at the extractors and they are a different shape at the hook. I field strip the gun and now I see the crack where the extractor broke. I called S&W Customer Service and they had me ship the whole gun back and replaced the extractor. Up to this point I had about 800rds fired thru her - not a lot.

Fast forward to this weekend. Wife and I are out with some of her friends re-introducing them to firearms. I let one of them shoot my 45 and after she is done, I load another mag and fire a couple myself. After about 3rds I get a malfunction - double feed. I stopped and froze, Took a hard look at the extractor and it was broken again. Cleared the malfunction and tried to fire again - same malfunction. Called S&W and told them that this was now the second time this had happened. We will see what the come up with.

Any of you had this issue before?? I can understand it happening once, but twice to the same gun? Oh yeah, I had about 800rds thru that extractor.

I already went online to APEX and ordered 2 extractors from them. I'm going to pick up 1000rds of blasting ammo and make a day of it when I get the 45 back.

Semper Fi,

Luis R.

 

[andyo5]

The only thing I can think of is that the extractor may be restrained from pivoting in its slot for some reason. Something stuck behind it or the slot not machined correctly.

 

[Saudade]

So I am compelled to ask. Have you placed a round in the barrel from the ejection port and then released the slide?

 

[Jim NNN]

I have an M&P .40...no problems. Sorry to hear about your issues.

 

[Luis_R.]

So I am compelled to ask. Have you placed a round in the barrel from the ejection port and then released the slide?

NOPE. Was told that was bad juju for the 1911, and don't do it on any pistol. Always load from a magazine.


Semper Fi,

Luis R.

 

[Saudade]

Thanks Luis. On some handguns it's OK, but it's a good practice to avoid.

Very odd it's happened twice. Hopefully the Apex part solves it.

 

[swsig]

In my experience, Smith & Wesson will make it right. And the right thing for them to do is to send you an entire new slide. Two failed attempts at factory repair suggest that a new slide is the only reasonable solution. I wouldn't spend any money with Apex just now. In general, S&W extractors are very robust. I have 15,000 rounds through my M&P 40 compact and my Shield .45 combined, and their extractors have worked flawlessly. When S&W rebuilt my 40c when it developed light strikes around 10,000 rounds, they replaced almost every part (free of charge) except the extractor. 1400 rounds post-rebuild, it's still extracting perfectly. Thus, I'd advise giving them another chance to make it right.

 

[Luis_R.]

SWSIG - I know S&W will make it right, but its a little frustrating. I've been around at least 6 other M&P that are used for work and none of them have had this issue. My wife's gun has at least 5000 rounds thru it and not a single hiccup. We will see what happens after I get it back. I think I will look into taking an advanced class and maybe a couple of matches to test it out before I change out the extractor.


Semper Fi,

Luis R.

 

[Flattop5]

It almost seems like it isn't the extractor per se. It seems like something is "holding back" the cartridge, causing the beak of the extractor to break when it tries to pull out the cartridge. Rough chamber, maybe? Chamber out-of-spec maybe?


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[richardw]

NOPE. Was told that was bad juju for the 1911, and don't do it on any pistol. Always load from a magazine.

Semper Fi,

Luis R.

Absolutely bad practice to load the chamber from the ejection port. Unlikely that there will be a mishap, but if there is one it is the loader's finger and thumb that will be damaged in the least case scenario and in the worst case it could be a lot worse if the slide release gives way.

Semper Fi Luis.

 

[GKC]

Was told that was bad juju for the 1911, and don't do it on any pistol. Always load from a magazine.

I was at my LGS a while back, and he was showing me his new SIG P229. He was carrying it, so he ejected the chambered round, dropped the magazine, and handed it to me. When I got through looking at it, I handed it back, and he proceeded to load the previously chambered round via the ejection port, slowly closed the slide, and then put the magazine back in the grip. I asked him about doing that, and he said that it wasn't a good idea for pistols with an internal extractor, like a 1911, but wasn't bad occasionally for a pistol with an external extractor.

He said the problem occurred when the slide is slammed closed on a pistol with an internal extractor, and it bumps over an already chambered round. Even if you close the slide slowly, it still isn't a good idea. For pistols with an external extractor, they have room to move laterally, to clear the chambered round, but it still isn't a good idea to let the slide slam closed (as in using the slide release, or sling shot it.) Instead you should ride the slide closed slowly.

I don't know if he's right or not...I've always heard that it was NOT a good idea for any semi-auto. I still always load from the magazine. Also, if for some reason I need to remove the chambered round, I don't put it back in the magazine...I put it in a range ammo box to use there, because of set back concerns. I do check the OAL as best I can, by comparing it to other rounds of the same make and caliber, and if it looks off, I won't reuse it even at the range. I just don't want to take any chances with a carry gun/ammo. Actually, I don't want to take any chances at the range either...so I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[chief on one]

Looks like cast metal.

 

[Rastoff]

They had some failures early on. This is why Apex came up with the "Failure Resistant" extractor.

I know you have a couple on order, but I have an extractor. I had an issue early on and talked S&W into sending me another extractor. I replaced it and this one has been sitting in a drawer ever since. If you want it, PM me your address and I'll drop it in an envelope.

They're easy to replace. Just don't lose the spring.

 

[Rastoff]

Looks like cast metal.

Not cast, MIM.

 

[Rastoff]

I was at my LGS a while back, and he was showing me his new SIG P229. He was carrying it, so he ejected the chambered round, dropped the magazine, and handed it to me. When I got through looking at it, I handed it back, and he proceeded to load the previously chambered round via the ejection port, slowly closed the slide, and then put the magazine back in the grip. I asked him about doing that, and he said that it wasn't a good idea for pistols with an internal extractor, like a 1911, but wasn't bad occasionally for a pistol with an external extractor.

All semi-auto guns are designed so the extractor has room to bump over an already chambered round. If they weren't, they wouldn't be very good guns.

You're correct though, it's a bad practice to load a round by any method other than the mag. However, if you're going to be diligent and practice the way you should, you're going to practice Type I, II and III malfunctions. If done properly, a Type III malfunction clearance will have the extractor bumping over an already chambered round. Eventually this will damage your extractor. It took 8,103 rounds before the extractor in my 1911 broke, but it did. I'll be replacing it after the next 7,000 whether it needs it or not.

 

[kbm6893]

I believe it is safe to place a round in the chamber and then close the slide in a Beretta 92. I believe they even mention that feature on their website.

 

[Rastoff]

I believe it is safe to place a round in the chamber and then close the slide in a Beretta 92. I believe they even mention that feature on their website.

Yes, it's safe. It's just hard on the extractor.

 

[richardw]

Yes, it's safe. It's just hard on the extractor.

Yes, and that is why one should not do it. Once the first shot is fired the extractor is as important as the firing pin. A failure to eject can get you killed. Any soldier or marine who carried the early M16 rifle in combat can attest to that. An ejection failure is likely to be partial, leaving the casing partially in the chamber. Then you have to deal with a stovepipe and a partial ejection.

If you are the fastest gun handler on earth you will still lose 5 seconds at least clearing. That is just enough time for a gad guy to shoot you.

Another problem is that a defective ejector is likely to repeat its poor performance. OK, you ge.t pas,t the first failure Ok. What about the second?

I chamber rounds from the magazine and add one to the mag. It is simple and is done while not under fire.

 

[Fastbolt]

Odd that a M&P extractor would break once, let alone twice in a row in the same gun.

I think in my last M&P armorer recert (5th class) the instructor told us that he'd only been able to hear of a couple of broken extractors reported in M&P pistols, and he's talked to a lot of LE armorers in recent years. (Bear in mind that LAPD has been issuing M&P 9's to cadets for the last 2-3 years, and LASD is not only issuing M&P 9's (and, apparently, a small number of M&P 40's), but they did a LOT of testing before finally deciding to order them. One of their range instructors claimed, as I recall, putting more than 100,000 rounds through the M&P 9 during that time.

The M&P extractors have been revised a couple of times, from what I can remember. There was a revision involving increasing the rearward rake and length of the hook (I was told that was intended to offset increased slide velocity when some high pressure loads were used in at least one of the calibers).

The last time I received a few spare extractors as an armorer - just to round out a parts kit, not because I'd seen any broken ones - the parts list showed a different part number, which included a name as part of the name/number (Phillips? I'd have to go look).

M&P I-beam extractors are pretty robust in dimension, with a thick leading forward shoulder and hook. In my first M&P pistol armorer class ('07) we were told that while dropping a slide over an already chambered round was never a good practice, the engineers had designed the M&P extractor with a thicker leading shoulder, in anticipation of a malfunction or stoppage that might require a LE user to manually run a slide to try and have an extractor remove a "stuck" round or empty case from the chamber. They wanted to minimize the potential for damage to occur to the extractor should that sort of thing happen due to an ammo problem. They still didn't recommend dropping a slide (and its extractor) over the case rim of a round dropped directly into the chamber, but they apparently recognized that such an ammo-related extraction problem might come along and be experienced by a user in the field.

What ammunition were you using when the breakages occurred? All fresh factory (meaning new production), or someone's handloads, remanufactured or foreign-made?

Since this has happened twice, in the same gun, I'd be inclined to wonder whether something about the barrel or the slide's machining might be out-of-spec, putting unintended stress on the extractor. Stranger things have happened.

Please let us know what you hear, as this is very unusual and I'd be interested in learning the outcome. I still help support M&P's as an armorer for the M&P pistol and the Shield.

 

[GKC]

However, if you're going to be diligent and practice the way you should, you're going to practice Type I, II and III malfunctions. If done properly, a Type III malfunction clearance will have the extractor bumping over an already chambered round.

OK, I'll display my ignorance (which is usually evident pretty quickly): what are the three types of malfunctions? I mean, I know about stove pipes, failures to load, failures to fire, double feeds, etc. I've never known them to be classified into types. But then, I don't even know most, much less all.

 

[Rastoff]

...what are the three types of malfunctions?

A reasonable question. Calling them Type I, II or III covers most malfunctions that happen to guns.

Type I (Fail to Fire)
Symptom- Press trigger and get a click, but no bang.
Cause- Dud round, no round in chamber
Fix- Tap on the bottom of the magazine to ensure it's properly seated, rack the slide while tilting the pistol to the right, point back on target and assess the situation and whether another round needs to be delivered.

Type II (Fail to Eject, Stovepipe)
Symptom- Press trigger and feel something funny or a dead trigger, i.e. nothing happens.
Cause- The spent casing has failed to eject cleanly and is stuck in the ejection port.
Fix- Look at the ejection port and see brass sticking out. Tap on the bottom of the magazine to ensure it's properly seated, rack the slide while tilting the pistol to the right, point back on target and assess the situation and whether another round needs to be delivered. Just like Type I.

Type III (Fail to Extract, Double Feed)
Symptom- Press trigger and feel something funny or a dead trigger, i.e. nothing happens. Same as Type II.
Cause- The fired casing has not been extracted from the chamber. The new round has tried to feed behind it and the slide is held back by the new round.
Fix- Check to see if you have a new magazine. If you don't, you'll need to retain the one still in the gun. Lock the slide to the rear. Strip the mag out of the magwell. The partially fed round will keep it from dropping freely. Retain if you don't have a fresh one. Rack the slide at least three times. Insert new or retained mag. Rack slide to chamber new round. Assess the situation to see if another shot is necessary.


These are the three most common failure modes. There is also a fail-to-feed. This can come in a couple different forms though and the fix is dependent on which form. For example, if the round is partially in the chamber, a tap on the mag will usually fix it. However, if the round is mostly in the chamber, but the slide is not fully forward, a bump on the back of the slide usually fixes it. It just depends on what exactly happened.

Sorry for the drift, but it is relevant. When clearing a Type III malfunction, the extractor must bump over the rim of the round that failed to extract. Practicing this malfunction clearance is hard on the extractor. Most of the time during practice, the round in the chamber just falls out because it wasn't really stuck. However, sometimes it stays in there and is extracted as the slide is racked a few times. It's all just part of being prepared.

 

[Luis_R.]

Odd that a M&P extractor would break once, let alone twice in a row in the same gun.

...

What ammunition were you using when the breakages occurred? All fresh factory (meaning new production), or someone's handloads, remanufactured or foreign-made?

...

Since this has happened twice, in the same gun, I'd be inclined to wonder whether something about the barrel or the slide's machining might be out-of-spec, putting unintended stress on the extractor. Stranger things have happened.

...

This is where I sit. I have had multiple pistols over the years. I've put over 30K rounds each thru a P220 and a 92G and have never had an extractor break. I've had other friends that have put high round counts thru their pistols, some for competition, and they have not had this come up. I too think that there is something else that is not right. Hopefully S&W will figure out what the issue is.

While I have used so commercial remanufactured ammo, I was using REM/UMC ball ammo when it broke this time.


Semper Fi,

Luis R.

 

[Fastbolt]

This is where I sit. I have had multiple pistols over the years. I've put over 30K rounds each thru a P220 and a 92G and have never had an extractor break. I've had other friends that have put high round counts thru their pistols, some for competition, and they have not had this come up. I too think that there is something else that is not right. Hopefully S&W will figure out what the issue is.

While I have used so commercial remanufactured ammo, I was using REM/UMC ball ammo when it broke this time.


Semper Fi,

Luis R.

I've seen a relatively small number of broken, chipped or burred extractors over the years in some different guns, mostly early production S&W 3rd gen's ('89-'91) and Glocks. Some out-of-tension Colt extractors, too. The Glocks ranged from relatively new to more than 10 years old.

Bear in mind that this was probably only around 2 dozen guns, give or take, out of more than a thousand issued S&W's guns (a mix of both older models and then the mid-2000's TSW models which replaced the aging early production guns), and a couple hundred (again, give or take) personally-owned guns, so that's not many when you think about the mix of older and newer production guns that I've seen go through our range.

Mostly they were either high mileage guns, or guns in which the owners or issued users acknowledged the practice of having loaded their chambers by dropping rounds directly into the barrel's chamber and letting the slides slam forward, making the extractor hit and bounce out over the case rim of the chambered rounds, versus loading from a magazine (as recommended by the manufacturers). There was an odd Glock that broke one when still fairly new, but it was also an older production model, and sometimes even a new part can slip through with some unrecognized defect or tolerance fit problem.

The M&P's being issued (9, .40 & .45) have only been in-service for almost a couple of years, and probably number less than 500 (small batches have subsequently been ordered for new-hires), so they're relatively brand new.

My own M&P 45 dates back to early '08 production, but it's only seen several thousand rounds of range use, as I only used it for occasional range training and off-duty use. The ammo has included standard pressure and some +P (230gr RA45TP), with the standard pressure being a mix of 230gr RA45T, Rem 230gr Golden Sabre and Win 230gr USA JHP & ball.

My 40c dates back to early 2010 production, and it's also only seen a few thousand rounds of range use, too, meaning probably not over 5K rounds.

When you returned the M&P 45 to the Springfield repair dept, did you include a detailed letter with the gun reminding them that this is the second extractor breakage. There's no way to know which tech may get the gun on his bench, and sometimes even if you manage to get a tech on the phone when arranging to return a gun (versus having a customer service person field the call and arrange a shipping label), he probably isn't going to remember a call. Rather than trust their computers have tracked the gun, I'd want to make sure a letter brought it to their attention that this is the second time it's been returned for the same problem, so they make a closer inspection of the barrel and slide machining.

I'm confident they can make it right, even if it requires a different slide and/or barrel (or locking block, etc). Let us know.

The M&P's have endured a lot of testing by some large agencies. LAPD, LASD and the CHP are just some of the larger West Coast agencies about which I've learned of some of their in-house testing for adoption of the M&P's.(My own agency probably only has 500 M&P's by now, but some new batches have been added for new hires since they were first issued, and we also allow authorized models of personal weapons by some other major makers, so we aren't what you may call a large agency

I remember handling a pre-production M&P 45 in '07 which had been one of the guns used in the R&D of the model for submission in the '05 JCP military program (which was suspended in '06). The rep who let me handle it said the gun had seen many thousands of rounds (can't remember the number any more) during the heavy factory testing.

 

[Funflyer]

IMHO, that break is caused by the stress of a round loading. It's not extracting or closing the slide on a chambered round that's causing that fatigue. Look closely.

It might just be the picture but I don't see the breech face "brassed" up like I do on other Shields. Are you using any steel case ammo by chance?

Has the pistol had any chambering problems requiring a smack to the back of the slide to feed a round, maybe early in it's life or right after a new extractor was installed? This can also be tough on an extractor.

You might also have a gunsmith stone that breech face to help, if in fact binding is an issue.

 

[Rastoff]

It's interesting how the meteoric rise of the popularity of the Shield has changed perceptions. I've seen it in many threads lately that people automatically assume the thread is about the Shield.

It might just be the picture but I don't see the breech face "brassed" up like I do on other Shields.

This is not a Shield we're talking about here. It's a mid size 4" M&P45.

I don't think that makes any difference to what you're talking about Funflyer, but it is interesting to note.

 

[Funflyer]

It's interesting how the meteoric rise of the popularity of the Shield has changed perceptions. I've seen it in many threads lately that people automatically assume the thread is about the Shield.

This is not a Shield we're talking about here. It's a mid size 4" M&P45.

I don't think that makes any difference to what you're talking about Funflyer, but it is interesting to note.

That's funny, I read every word of this thread but must have had Shield on the brain. Regardless, my comment can be applied to either, or, all.