Browning Hi-Power question

[ISCS Yoda]

In a current thread there is a long discussion about Walther pistols being made in France and Germany and that the quality is high in both cases, etc. You can read it here:


http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearms-knives-other-brands/490951-mauser-interarms-hsc-380-a.html


My query in there, that I said I'd do out loud here, is whether or not the long lecture about high quality despite being made/assembled in different countries applies to Browning Hi-Powers that are made in Belgium but assembled in Portugal?

I'm sure it's been discussed before so I apologize in advance for resurrecting an oldie....

 

[BAM-BAM]

I've got two Mark IIIs ..... great guns...........

Hi-Powers were first; and still, made by FN in Belgium..... not Browning.

Then the Germans took over ....... and Canadians supplied themselves and the British..... then back to FN for Browning to import to the USA ..... and then bunches of knock-offs in Eastern Europe ...............

the current Belgium/ Portugal guns have several improvements over earlier guns...... sights, safeties, forged frames.......... extractors (?)

 

[29aholic]

Having had both I see no difference in quality. Quality control is quality control regardless of where something is made. If you have it, use good processes you put out a good product. If you dont have it, you put out ****.

There was a long standing joke some years ago that Smith had fired the guy at the end of the line that used to be the QA guy, that's why 60's and earlier vintage guns are so prized (beyond the obvious). From some recent threads I've seen looks like they are having the same issues.

 

[OLDSTER]

I've got two Mark IIIs ..... great guns...........

Hi-Powers were first; and still, made by FN in Belgium..... not Browning.

Then the Germans took over ....... and Canadians supplied themselves and the British..... then back to FN for Browning to import to the USA ..... and then bunches of knock-offs in Eastern Europe ...............

the current Belgium/ Portugal guns have several improvements over earlier guns...... sights, safeties, forged frames.......... extractors (?)

Yes: The Hi-Power has always been made by FN in Belgium. Browning is merely an importer. John Brownings involvement ended with his death in the mid-1920s, and the pistols development and manufacture have belonged to Fabrique Nationale ever since.The internal extractor was deleted in favor of the external extractor in 1962. HPs have been assembled at FNs Portugal plant since the early 1970s.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

For clarity, let's not quibble over who makes them - we know it's FN - they're often called "Browning Hi-Powers", sometimes just "Hi-Powers". I apologize if the confusion started with me.

The key to this issue is that nobody ever told me this, not that I recall, anyway:

HPs have been assembled at FNs Portugal plant since the early 1970s.

If I had known it was FN's plant I probably would never have asked the question!

Much obliged y'all.

 

[BAM-BAM]

For clarity, let's not quibble over who makes them - we know it's FN - they're often called "Browning Hi-Powers", sometimes just "Hi-Powers". I apologize if the confusion started with me.

The key to this issue is that nobody ever told me this, not that I recall, anyway:



If I had known it was FN's plant I probably would never have asked the question!

Much obliged y'all.

Ya, kind of like Beretta having a plant in Maryland ....... and now Tenn. .... but still Beretta

 

[BB57]

Hi Powers were never made in Portugal, although FN did have them assembled there - apparently due to lower labor costs.

Still, I've never seen anything on the Portugal marked Hi Powers that suggests they were assembled to any less of a QA standard and the fit and finish is as good as the Belgian assembled Hi Powers.

-----

Hi Powers were made in Argentina by Direccion General Fabrications Militaries (FM) under license on FN supplied tooling and with FN inspectors from 1969 to 1989. They were made to the same standard and specifications as the FN Hi Powers being made in Belgium, and assembled in Portugal.

These are also great Hi Powers and were the same as the 1965 era Mk II Hi Power completed with a phosphate finish, plastic grips and lanyard ring.

In 1990, FM started making an unlicensed copy of the Hi Power and called it the M90. FM deleted the lanyard ring, substituted rubber grips and used a much more 1911 looking profile on the front of the slide. The finish on them is rather crude in comparison to the FN licensed Hi Powers but it's functional. You can find them for about half the price of a licensed Hi Power. They are well made overall, but the magazines are poor quality so you'll want to get a new Hi Power magazine from Mec-Gar or from FN.

---

FEG also made an Hi Power clone. The original FEG P9 pistol is a very faithful pre Mk II Hi Power clone and has 100% parts interchangeability with the pre Mk I FN Hi Power.

The first variant of the FEG P9M uses a different slide stop and slide stop cut, along with 3 dot sights, but is otherwise identical to the Pre Mk I Hi Power and has complete parts interchangeability with the exception of the above mentioned parts.

The Second variation of the P9M uses a S&W style locking system and really isn't a Hi Power at all, although it still shares the same external lines. Parts interchangeability is very limited, but they still take the same Hi Power magazine.

FEG also made the P9R which is a double action pistol that also uses the S&W locking system and is more closely related to the S&W Model 59, but is often confused with the FEG "Hi Power" pistols. The P9R does not use the Hi Power magazine.

The early P9 and first variant P9M Hi Powers can be found in both a nicely polished blued commercial finish as well as a parkerized military finish. They are excellent shooting Hi Powers.

I've found my FEG first variant P9M to be every bit as reliable as My Mk III Hi Power and almost as accurate.

----

When FN added the .40 S&W caliber in the Hi Power, they adopted a cast frame, rather than the traditional forged frame.

These can be distinguished by the grooved lines on the bottom of the grip frame, as opposed to the smooth bottom of a forged frame Hi Power. The cast frame was adopted because it was stronger than the forged frame.

The .40 S&W Hi Power also used a heavier slide to accommodate the increased recoil of the cartridge and while they retained the lighter slide on the 9mm Hi Power, they used the same cast frame on all of the Hi Powers after that point.

Purists don't like the cast frame, apparently because change is naturally a bad thing - but they are stronger frames.

 

[Bullet Bob]

Stephen A. Camp (R.I.P.) has an excellent book for users (not collectors only) of the High Power, and used to have a website for them. According to the well known gunsmiths he asked, the HP's assembled in Portugal are at least as good as the ones assembled in Belgium.

As in any guns, cars, etc., ones assembled when labor was much cheaper often have a look that people like.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

According to the well known gunsmiths he asked, the HP's assembled in Portugal are at least as good as the ones assembled in Belgium.

And that's that!

Gracias a todos!

 

[italiansport]

There's also a FN Hi-Power clone that was made in Israel for their military. Quite a few came in as surplus some years ago and I got one out of a bunch for sale at J&G in Prescott Arizona. The were sold out according to J&G in about 1 day and they haven't been able to get any more. Again the quality is exceptional and it's an accurate and reliable shooter.
Jim

 

[BB57]

There's also a FN Hi-Power clone that was made in Israel for their military. Quite a few came in as surplus some years ago and I got one out of a bunch for sale at J&G in Prescott Arizona. The were sold out according to J&G in about 1 day and they haven't been able to get any more. Again the quality is exceptional and it's an accurate and reliable shooter.
Jim

The Israeli Hi Powers came from a variety of sources including surplus FN made Hi Powers, surplus Canadian made Hi Powers and surplus Hi Powers made under German occupation. They also bought new Hi Powers from FN as well as new P9 pistols from FEG.

Israel also wanted its own domestic production however, so they started assembling their own Hi Powers from parts made by FEG, and when FEG went out of business they assembled them from parts made by ARCUS. These Israeli assembled Hi Powers are marked:

J.O. Israel Arms LTD
KAREEN

FEG also made a number of Hi Powers for sale to certain Arab countries such as Syria, Iraq and Egypt. They put FN markings on them to avoid making it obvious they were selling arms to those countries.

These forgeries will appear to be FN Hi Powers until you start noting discrepancies in the small details and serial numbers that are not consistent with FN made Hi Powers. Many of these have also ended up in Israeli hands due to conflicts and captures in Egypt and Syria and also show up in the Israeli export Hi Powers.