I really like the lines of the internal extractor Hi Powers. The roll pin in the slides of post '62s drives me nuts.
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Browning Hi Power
- Thread starter Biginge
- Start date
The LGS just bought a collection of BHPs. There is one made in 1975, 1988 and the others all built between 2009 and 2014. All have the boxes except the two older ones and are all unfired. I'm trying to decide which one to get, I'm leaning towards one of the older ones just because they are beautiful and in perfect condition. There are a couple of combat models but the rest all have target sights.
Would the newer models shoot better because of all the updates or does it matter and just go with one of the older ones just because they are beautiful?
Would the newer models shoot better because of all the updates or does it matter and just go with one of the older ones just because they are beautiful?
RobertJ.
Member
Personally i would go for one that was made the latest. mine was made in 1943 and I pretty much do not shoot it, it is strictly for show and tell and the odd occasional barbecue gun appearance
BrewsterII
Member
Hey, I wanna play! Here is my HP Practical, best 9mm ever built IMHO!
Frank237
Absent Comrade
Have had this guy for fifteen years or so. Stock gun, that was worked over by Wayne Novak with a new trigger, action job, sights and some cosmetic work.
Nicely done. I like the gun not sure I am a fan of the caption. I am sure you will enjoy shooting that fine Hi Power.
There is a misconception that Browning was looking to improve on the 1911 with the BHP design. It is simply not the case. The BHP was a contract gun. The contract called for a 9mm pistol built to a particular spec. If the spec had called for it to be chambered in 22LR that is what JMB would have designed it in. The same holds true for the 1911 it too was a contract gun built to a contract spec. Much of what it became was based on what the spec said it had to be.
It was his last design before his death but it was not an attempt to "improve on the 1911". The actual gun JMB produced is not what we today call the High Power. These are the patient blueprints of JMBs Grand Rendement.
You can see that BHP of today in these drawings but the BHP of today is really a JMB and Dieudonné Saive co design. Saive, the inventor of the FAL, finish the pistol after JMBs death after modifications to the french contract requirements. The French never adopted the pistol but the Belgians did in 1935.
The 1911 and the BHP partially share a designer and the BHPs later versions utilized some of the expiring patient designs of the 1911, incorporated by Saive not JMB, but the BHP was not an attempt to improve upon the 1911. It was just another contract gun.
If you are interested in the history of the BHP I suggested getting your hands on a copy of R Blakes Stevens "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol." It is a great read and has a lot of info on the early development of the BHP.
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45Wheelgun
Member
Hey, I wanna play! Here is my HP Practical, best 9mm ever built IMHO!
I love the addition of the wood grips - they are the finishing touch a Practical needs.
I have several "collectable" HPs that I cherish for their classic finishes and raw beauty.
I want a practical so bad I can taste it. I think it is the perfect blending of the classic features that make a HP a HP, and the modern durability of the Practical finishes. I have yet to find one at a price I considered reasonable, but when I do I will carry it and shoot the snot out of it.
I feel like a kid begging for a dog - "I'll feed it and clean it and take extra good care of it, PLEASE?"
To me it all comes down to what you want in a BHP. Do you want a pretty gun you do not shoot very often but is gorgeous and is piece of history?
Or do you want a working gun which is something you will can carry everday?
Or something in between.....
Asking yourself that question will go a long way to answering which one you should buy. I personally am not a fan of the factory target sights but that is just me it is not that I don't like adjustable sights if find the factory front blade too tall.
One thing to consider is that many people report that the older "beer can" adjustables do not hold zero very long without the uses of loctite. Other people don't seem to have and issue. I am not sure if it is a quality issue or a QC issue. They are called "beer can" sights because of the round barrel look of the windage adjustments seen below. If it were me and I could only have one I would pass on an older BHP with "beer cans".
The 1975 will be a C series gun. The C and T series are considered by collectors to be the best of the BHP in terms of fit and finish. They will typically command higher prices. T series are "worth" more than C. That said they are typically not a shootable as newer versions. They have the old half moon combat sight and the small thumb safety. As a range gun the safety does not make much of a difference but the sights do. If you love the look and can shoot the half moon sights this is the one I would buy, assuming it does not have beer can sights, all things being equal and if the LGS knows anything about BHPs I can assume they are not all priced the same.
Many will say is is sacrilege but you can always change out the sights by having someone like Novak mill the slide and install more modern sights. The thumb safety can also be replaced and that modification does not alter the gun. Things to consider.
The 1988 gun could be an interesting one. It is from the time frame when Browning switched to the MKIII. Early ones came with a forged frame the later ones come with a cast frame. You can tell the difference looking at the mag well. Forged will be smooth the cast will be serrated.
If the gun in question is a forged frame MKIII I would seriously consider it. They are a bit of an oddity. It is a shame it does not have its box. It would add to its value. This would be my second choice even if it has a cast frame. It will have a nice older school blue but have more modern features. If you don't like the sights on the C series I would get this one.
The only advantage to getting one of the newer guns is that they will all be MKIIIs with cast frames. They will hold up to more +P rounds than the older forged ones. IMHO they will last longer even if you do not shoot +P. You have to keep in mind that we are still talking about a lot of rounds. I doubt 30,000 rounds will shoot a forged frame to failure. You might need to replace a barrel but not the frame.
In the end you really can't go wrong and I doubt once you get your hands on whichever you choose that it will be your only Hi Power!
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I have a couple of BHPs equipped with the old-style extractor. Both are Inglis-made WWII examples. This one is a "Type 1" (long range adjustable rear sight), complete with holster and spare magazine. It's marked with the Canadian "broad arrow" acceptance stamp and was manufactured in August, 1945. I once purchased a Lithuanian pre-war BHP in a pawn shop - they had no idea what the strange markings were. Neither did I until I wrote the NRA. The NRA wondered how it ever got into this country. I foolishly sold it; I understand it's now in Bill Drollinger's collection.
John
John
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amazingflapjack
US Veteran
You can really see the BHP's linage in the present day CZ's
On the exterior that look very similar but in that is where the similarities ends in my assessment. Here is a great articleby the late Mr Camp on the subject. I tend to agree with him. I like the BHP and the 75. Not taking anything away from the CZ.
Browning & the CZ75
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RobertJ.
Member
Thanks!
I wrote that half in jest, fully expecting a verbal caning from some of our more staunch 1911 fans!
Now, if I was really brave, I'd post it over at the 1911 forum!
And BTW, that was an excellent write-up on the HP. I knew that Saive had designed it with him, and put the finishing touches on it, but I didn't know the rest of the story. It also explains why my FAL gets along so well with my Model 94, they're distantly related!
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I've wanted a Hi Power since I shot my Uncle's in the early 80's. Ran across a 77C, parkerized FN for a fair price. Frame, barrel and slide share matching serial numbers. Hog nose bushing and no import marks. Bought it around Halloween, a case of 124gr Geco and 5 Mecgar 13 round magazine. 10 days later I'm out of ammunition and am hooked. The gun is sooo easy to shoot well, even with the 1/2 moon front sight and notch rear. I will send this to Novak for better sights. It deserves it.
Wednesday, while browsing a local gun board, I found a Practical, fixed sights, in 9mm.
511mw serial number puts it at 2004 manufacture. He has the plastic box, all the paper work, Browning rug, 5xPractical mags and 1 15rd Mecgar. It is mine this Saturday!
Wednesday, while browsing a local gun board, I found a Practical, fixed sights, in 9mm.
511mw serial number puts it at 2004 manufacture. He has the plastic box, all the paper work, Browning rug, 5xPractical mags and 1 15rd Mecgar. It is mine this Saturday!
When I first came on my old JOB, our Tactical Impact unit/Stakeout unit was armed with the Browning HP. It was the only single action permitted except for undercover Narcs who were permitted to carry a .25 auto similar to the old Baby Browning. I have a 76 edition and wouldn't trade for much of anything. I purchased mine from a Sheriff's Officer in N.J> and for me, it has NEVER jammed. It eats everything and is very comforting to have.
I fully understand the jest. I think that the 1911 is a excellent gun as well. I am glad you found the info informative. The history of the BHP is really interesting. I wish there was more info on all the contract guns that FN made over the years. Their record keeping was terrible. They often used the same serial numbers for different contracts.
It makes it very confusing sometimes to determine just what it is you are looking at.
Enjoy that BHP please post a range session report when you get a chance.
I love the fixed sight practical. Hope you got a good deal on that nice package. Post pics when it is your hands.
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Just got back. This is the Gentleman's photo I copied from the for sale ad. I do not have a camera, other than my phone...
Gun is almost new. I did change the grips to the new Spegels' I just received.
My shooter workhorse
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da gimp
Member
I'll dispute that on the internal extractor. my old duty gun was a 1st year production stack number High power with a S&W K frame adjustable rear sight melted into the slide....and a nice higher front sight too. I've put somewhere between 6000 to 8000 rounds thru that pistol, most a 115 gr truncicated cone RCBS cast bullet over a stout load of Unique and duty loads of a Hornady JHP over the same load of Unique....& have never had a problem with it.........Nor have I heard of any friend with one ever having problems with theirs either.
The original internal extractor of the BHP is of the same wonderful style as those found on 99% of all 1911 & 1911A1 .45 ACP pistols ..... it is just as reliable as those...........I refuse to buy any 1911A1 that has the so called "modern external extractor" as it cannot be replaced or easily cleaned by the owner/shooter as those found on the original BHP's & Colt 1911's.
To clean the original design, a ball point ink pen is required , to clean this mis-begotten ill designed external extractor requires a particular sized roll pin punch, of sufficient length, a hammer, & a good work bench to do it on.........
I can & have field stripped both BHP's & 1911's over my jacket/shirt spread out over the ground & cleaned them of mud/snow or whatever. you cannot do that with the external extractor, which saves the factory probably $15.00 less to mill the slide for the external extractor & probably saves another $10.00 to make the external extractor, that is the only reason they were made .......or every 1911 would now be made with them, as it is only one company still makes an external extractor equipped 1911.
Bill L. at Cylinder & Slide didn't mouth it, though he did rebuild my sear for me at the 1986 Bianchi Cup when he'd found that it had worn........... he charged me $15.00 back then, small sized sheriff's dept. deputies didn't & don't make a lot of money........... & I was very thankful for his help too. Bill is truly a classy guy & a great gunsmith.
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You and I can agree to disagree on this point. 8,000, the higher of your 2 estimates, rounds is not a small number but it certainly is not a large one either in terms of a sample round count. The fact that it has not broken yet is really no indicator that it will not break tomorrow. On the flip side it may never break.
Either way it really does not change my thoughts or recommendations on the matter. I think we both will agree that any extractor is not a lifetime part. It is a wear related part. As a result it will break or wear out at some point. Not necessarily as a result of a poor design but as a result of usage. I think of them the same way as I think about brakes or tires on a car. 1911 internal extractors certainly do. So if you are shooting a BHP with an internal extractor on a regular basis I personally would source a replacement extractor. They have not been produced by the factory for over 50 years. Surplus ones are getting scarce. When you do find them they are used and are expensive. They have an unkown round count already through them. Last time Saraco had them in stock they were $57 IIRC.
It is my understanding that Jack First is making new ones and sells them or $80. Jack First Gunshop - First in Gun Parts - Rapid City, South Dakota Jack has a long history of putting out of production parts into production because of market demand. There is a demand for these extractors or else he would not have started producing them. People shooting internal extractor BHPs are either breaking them or wearing them out or else there would be no demand.
Again not going to continue to argue if they are weak point in the gun but I would stress that that area wearable part which even when properly designed and maintained simply wear out. Kind of like tires.
So I would pick one up while you can vs being caught scrambling for one down the road which I often see people doing on BHP related sites.Cleaning and maintaining the extractor was never really a point of discussion but since you brought it up the external while it may not look as good to many eyes requires less maintenance in my experience. It does not require retensioning or adjustment. It require cleaning but in my experience only every 5,000+ rounds and even at that point I have not had one so dirty it was failing just should be cleaned. I have seen reports of people who have had failures do to dirty extractors but 99% of the time the round count is unknown and they have never cleaned it so one must take it with a grain of salt.
Yes punches are required but really for properly maintaining any BHP you need a set of punches. IMHO Also there are actually 2 current 1911 manufacturers that use a external extractor. S&W and Sig. I believe that both of them do so because of economy of the economy of scale they gain since all their other pistols are external extractors. Kimber could never get their design to work so they went back to the internal. S&Ws and Sigs seem to both run well. My number 1 complaint with their external 1911 extractors is that they are not user serviceable parts. They will not sell them or replace just parts under warranty. This is not the case with the BHP.
Bill and this shop C&S do excellent work. I have used their parts but never had the pleasure of meeting him in person. Not sure you saw this in my other post....
Its taken from the C&S website: The Browning Hi-Power Today
Anyway great discussion.
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