Buck n' Slug Day...

[SuperMan]

27 happy faces took a Tactical Shotgun Course today...

Most had been shooting a shotgun for years but had not done too much in the area of self-defense with a shotgun. Others were fairly new to shotguns and some had borrowed guns just to take the course.

Guns varied in make but all but three were pumps... Mossberg and Remington with a few more Mossybergs than Rems...

Many of the guns had sidesaddle shell carriers, some buttstock carriers and some of the shooters just chose to carry in a vest pocket or pouch. as this class was mainly geared toward just learning the ins and outs of defensive shotgun there was no real "tactical" work done...that will come later.

After an hour of classroom work, gun handling/functioning with dummy rounds and dry firing the first order of business was to pattern check the buckshot and then find out where slugs were hitting out of an individuals shotgun...

Buck shot was pattern tested at 10-15-25-35 and 50 yards. Slugs were checked at the same time from 15-50 yards. Somewhat surprisingly the buckshot patterns centered in the target as long as the shooter did their part all the way out to 50 yards with little detectable drop. Many of the slugs were directed at the head and in some guns shot just a few inches high...but very accurately.

Buckshot wise most of the shooters used the Federal low recoil 00 with the FlightControl wad...and it is a amazing round. Even in many of the cylinder bore guns all 9 pellets would land on the silhouette from 50 YARDS...not FEET...YARDS. At 10 yards this round would almost always punch a slug like hole through the target.

Several of the shooters had a supply of other buckshot rounds and none held a pattern like the Federal Low Recoil. The Winchester Ranger Low Recoil spread its 9 pellets just as wide as the Winchester Super-X and Remingtom Express that some other shooters had...and the recoild of these 1300 fps rounds was BRUTAL compared to the Low Recoil rounds.

This was one round of Winchester Ranger Low Recoil...from 15 yards..

This was one round of Winchester Super-X at 15 yards...

Now the Remington 00...one groin shot, one chest shot and one heard shot at 15 yards...

This was the Federal at 15 yards same shots....

...groin....or in this case belt buckle....

...chest...

...head...or what would be left of it...

The following three targets are the total of 5 different distances from 10-50 yards with three different guns all using the Federal Low Recoil...

...almost no pellets out of the kill zone... The other three brands started loosing pellets off the silhouette at 20 yards....


Slugs were very accurate...the ones in the head were all from one shooter from 15-50 yards...the high one was from a previous shooter....

These were also the Federal Low Recoil...the full power slugs were also very accurate but brutal on the shooters shoulder...


After the guns were petterened and checked for accuracy/POA with the slugs several sets of drills were done from various carry positions and stages of ready...sometimes starting with an empty gun and sometimes full. After the drills some 1/1 bowling pins were shot to put the shooters under the stress of having to beat an antagonist to survive...

Three bowling pins in a set and at 15 yards using buckshot drop the pin on your side of the set and the the center one to win...

Buck really makes the pins move...there is one caught in midair bottom up...

Then you went back to 35 yards and "slugged" it out using just slugs...

The last exercise had two shooters on either side of a skeet thrower with skeet being launched as fast as the thrower could launch them...trick was to beat the other shooter to the bird and stay topped off...

A great time and lot learned for a whole $20.00 entrance fee....

Bob Makowski

 

[cjcutter1]

Looks like a fun and educational day of shotguning.

 

[flop-shank]

Cool stuff, Bob. The patterns were consistent with my experience with Remington Express 9 pellet 00 and well as Federal Flight Control.

 

[CherryRiver]

I took my scatterguns down and ran a pile of buck and slugs through them to learn pretty much what you learned here.
Even ordinary Winchester Super-X 00 buck was effective at 45 yards, with all nine in the silhouette and most were alphas on the USPSA target.
Same went for the Winchester "military grade" stuff Cabela's sells. Regular Winchester slugs were great, the sabot ones were even better.
All this through a beater $200 Mossberg 500 eight-shooter with a cylinder bore and a little bead front sight only.
Heckuva lot of effectiveness for a handful of Jacksons.
Sounds like lots of good lessons.
I used to put on outlaw "practical" shotgun and rifle matches and it was a shock how little experience guys had with guns they expected to use under stress. Humbling for all.

 

[sipowicz]

Looks like fun....

BTW, the more tactical shotguns get, the more I like them plain...

 

[SuperMan]

"BTW, the more tactical shotguns get, the more I like them plain..."

I agree...something some of the shooters found out... It is nice but in reality not really necessary to have extra ammo attached to the gun. If you notice there are several different ways of carrying extra ammo...

Butt Cuff
Side Saddle
Speedfeed Stock

In the class reviews the butt cuffs are going... Speedfeed stock a pain...everyone however loved loading from the Side saddle. I had avoided one for years as I was of the opinion after using butt cuffs that it would throw the balance off... I put side saddles on my 835 and 500 to loan to friends for the course and dicided that they are a worth while item.

If you want a nice all-around shotgun that doesn't look "tactical" but is, look at the Mossberg 500 Grand Slam Turkey Camo... 6 of the shooters who borrowed guns and tried others for the shoot are buying them. 20" vent rib barrel with very low line FO sights for aimed fire, screw in chokes for custom patterning of bird and buck shot. We got a deal on them from a local retailer.

The Mossberg seemed to be the better liked of the pumps because of the position of the safety on the tang makes ambidextrous and the open bottom loading port is easier to get shells into and in the case of a shell jumping a magazine shell stop it will just fall out the bottom, not jam the action... Those who liked the Assault Rifle style pistol grip stock however found the top mounted safety slow...better to get a Remington if a folding or assault style stock is preferred.

Yes..it is hard to get all this for not much more than the price of a movie...

Bob

 

[NE450No2]

Looks like a good time.

I like the Side Saddle as well.

I have found that some shotgun shells if loaded with the brass in the down position, will slip out, to the ground, especially if shooting full power loads.

I load mine so the brass is up. Not quite as fast to load, but they are always there.

For a "house gun" I like buckshot in the mag tube, and slugs in the Side Saddle.

If I take the shotgun camping I usually slide on a buttstock shell carrier and put some birdshot in it for small nuisance varmints around camp or grouse.

In bear country I switch to Brenneke slugs.

When the SGN is on ready standby, I load the mag tube one round short.

Easier on the spring, and it also allows me to quickly slip a slug, or birdshot in the mag, rack the gun, and then lace another slug, or bird shot in the mag tube, thus allowing me to select my first 2 shots with out too much fussing about.

 

[SuperMan]

Thanks Tony,

Great thoughts from someone who has "been there and done that".

The shooters had no trouble with movement of the shells in the TacStar sidesaddles...they were falling out of the buttcuffs however...

On loading the tube "one round short"...great idea....

You store hammer down safety off or like we "had to" at the PD...empty, cocked and safety on. I store hammer dropped and safety off...rack and go, like I was taught by the Feds.

One item added to my SD shotgun was a tritium dot front sight. Lets me find the shotgun in the dark and a bead on where I want the shot to go... Meprolite and XS both make them.

Thanks again...Bob

 

[Bekeart]

Have you tested #4 Buckshot patterns

Bob,

Great post. Wish I lived closer. Would like to try a day like that.

Have you tested #4 Buckshot patterns ?? I don't think they come with FliteControl wads.

From Federals web page for their Personal Defense brand loads:
Available in 12 and 20-gauge options. PD132 00 - 9 pellet 00 Buckshot with FLITECONTROL® wad; PD156 4B - 34 pellet 4 Buckshot; PD256 4B - 24 pellet 4 Buckshot.


Bekeart

 

[IndianaDave]

That looked like a lot of fun. Those Federal rounds with the Flite-Control wad are really amazing. I was testing some at 10 yards and it just left a ragged hole.

 

[SuperMan]

I'ld use #4 Buck for fox or coyote hunting but when it comes to people and game over 100 pounds 00 has a 100% proven track record. That and I am not sure if those other loads come in Low Recoil or not... Try regular and low recoil and you will never go back to the heavies again....

Bob

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I want to be careful with my choice of words here to avoid being misunderstood.There is absolutely "nothing wrong" with the tactical shotgun concept.My comments are going to focus on the worthiness of the standard field gun.

The standard field gun is fully up to the task of getting the job done.A man who has and knows how to use a plain jane,no frills 12 gauge pump or auto does not need to feel any inferiority compared to the tactical variety.

Skeet shooting,etc,etc has little to do with combat use and it's carry over benefit is quite limited.That being said,the standard field piece is every bit as formidable when loaded with buck or slugs.I personally believe that many go to extremes with what they expect the shotgun to accomplish but within it's inherant limitations,the scatter gun will do just as well whether it's grandpa's old bird gun or that seen in the typical cruiser.

For whatever it's worth,I've done a great deal of shooting,testing with various shotguns loaded with buck and slugs over the years with penetration,pattern observations at various ranges.I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the standard choked barrel,front bead sighted gun does not take a back seat in any way.This is not criticism of the tactical counterpart but rather to suggest that those with a standard piece should not feel overwhelmed in their desire to run out and get the tactical piece with it's bells and whistles when they already have a sound and servicable shotgun.

 

[TMcD]

As one of those happy 27 faces, I first have to say Thanks Bob for a great day of shooting. All of my shotgun experience for the last 40 years has been with my bird guns shooting at ducks and geese. I opted to buy a Mossberg 500 Persuader on sale at Dick's for $279 for this course as I didn't want to bring my bird guns. That little bead sight and no choke options proved to be no problem with that Federal ammo that gave good tight patterns. When it came to the clays, I couldn't believe the accuracy of this gun and I actually felt I shot them as good with this short barrel as my longer ones. Oh well, maybe these over 60 eyes are actually not as bad as I thought. All in all, this was a great experience from the "tactical" perspective and I look forward to more with Bob. Thanks again for a great day. There sure were a lot of smiles on all those faces.

 

[NE450No2]

Thanks Bob, yes I store my guns hammer down safety off.

A little info on Buck shot sizes.
We had great results with full power [Low Recoil was not invented yet] 00 Buck on shot gun stakeouts, ie close range shots, but patrol was having problems missing at longer tanges.

A big test was done, and they started using No1 Buck.

It was soon determined that No1 gave good hits, but was lacking in penetration...

So a change was made to 0 [Single Ought]. This gave good hits and good penetration.
That was used until Federal Tactical 00 Buck shot came out [the original low recoil stuff].

I agree with SuperMan, it is either 0 or 00 for defense for me.

I do use No4 and No1 around my place for varmints.

Many people advocate some kind of birdshot for house defense....

Not me, NEVER, I have seen a lot of people shot with bird shot over the years...

 

[SuperMan]

Canoe...I agree with you...field guns take a back seat to nothing...except in length. 26-30" barreled field guns are very hard to maneuver indoors and trying to get out of a vehicle.

With an 18-20" barrel one looses nothing in effective velocity, they are very quick to the shoulder and since a shotgun is pointed not aimed the 20" vs. 28" barrel looses nothing in hitability...


Tom...glad you had a great time..everyone seemed to...now if we could just get NE450 to come up and give a Long Range rifle class.....

Bob

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Superman,

I didn't come here to argue but I'll briefly respond and then move on.There is nothing wrong with tactical shotguns.I was merely stating that there is a certain gamesmanship mentality among many shooters that leads them to believe they need certain bells and whistles to cope.

Over the years I've seen a number of examples of exagerations being made even though there was indeed a kernal of truth in the basic contention.I and many others have gone through a number of realistic drills with a variety of shotguns with the general impression that there is an element of exageration regarding the superiority of the tactical versions.The stubbier barrel can be an advantage in certain enviroments and circumstances but it's the exageration I call attention to.

To digress for a moment,I believe there is an exageration regarding shorter barrels in thick woods,etc.I have never found the short barrels to be an advantage in the brush.

I do disagree with the statement that it's pointed and not aimed.I apply a flash sight picture with the same principles involved as a flash sight picture with the handgun.Just as with the handgun,it's not at all slow.Yes,I'm aware that many are very good point shooters.

These are my impressions but I didn't mean to open a debate or argument.I have the sense that you found my comments to be somehow offensive but that was not the intent.

 

[SuperMan]

Oh I 100% agree with you... These were not "gamers"...I have seen "gamer" guns before used in the various contests and all these were is short barreled standard shot guns some of which had ammo carriers installed.

As to aimed vs. pointed...what I meant is that since there was really no front and rear sights to align like on a rifle, having a longer barrel (as in longer sight radius) was of no advantage. I am a point shooter when it comes to a shotgun...I look at the object to be hit rather than the barrel and beads...

I personally like short barreled shotguns and for that matter rifles while hunting in the woods. 20-25" for pumps and semis and 24-26 for doubles. My favorite hunting rifles have 16.5-20" barrels....

Thank you for your thoughts...Bob

 

[flop-shank]

I'm in the camp of those who aren't so enamored with blacktical, tactical stuff. My two main HD shotguns are a 1955 18" Ithaca 37 and a 1963 18" 870 Wingmaster. Both are five shooters. I also have a 20" Ithaca 87 Deerslayer that is a dedicated slug gun. It holds five as well.

From a static position a long hunting barrel gives up nothing. Manoevering in a tight hallway such as I have it would be less than the best, but still capable if the user is.

More important is the stock. IMO security shotguns should have a stock that's on the short end of, but not short of, the ideal length of pull. Since I'm betwerped, I find that a standard length 870 stock is workable, but slightly long. While I didn't modify my 870, both of my Ithacas have a wooden buttplate that I made in order to get rid of the thick recoil pads and shorten things further. Those "recoil enhancers" have the added benefit of not sticking to clothing while mounting the gun. My Ithaca 37 has a super short shock not only because the enhancer, but a previous owner had shortened it as well.

I had an incident in early December during which a car full of very lucky, but very drunk members of Mensa (not) tried to gain entry to my home at 0400 on a Sunday morning. As it turned out to be a case of the "bright ones" being at the wrong house, and not one where they tried to bust down the door, thank God no one was hurt. When the chaos started I grabbed my short little Ithaca 37 and took up a good firing position in my hallway. When things were over it occurred to me that the gun had just felt right due to the fact that it's weight, length, or anything else about it felt out of place. It was like an extension of my body that allowed me to focus on handling the situation as it unfolded.

One other thing really stands out about the little Ithaca. It didn't have a front sight when I got it, so I added the biggest silver bead I could find. During the low light of the December incident, I could see that bead from what little light was available in the house. My eyes were adjusted to the darkness, but truth be told, my night vision sucks. Those of you with good night vision might find a big bead of even more value than I did.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

It's my opinion that each and every one of us can find and use logistics which will support our personal preferences.I think it's an example of human nature.

Personally,I actually prefer a longer and heavier weapon but to each,his own.Admittedly I'm a fairly big guy with long arms,etc.I simply handle and shoot larger weapons better.

Even though I don't seem to have any difficulty with maneuvering with a full sized piece through hallways,doorways,removing from a vehicle,etc,I can certainly understand the validity of such a position regarding gun length.

In my opinion,such a concern is far more relevant from a law enforcement perspective.The very nature of sweeping a building requires movement.From a purely home defense perspective,I believe it to be somewhat less important.Speaking personally,I would position myself and remain stationary.The only one moving would be the other guy(s).

About buckshot,I'm in complete agreement with those prefering 00 buck.I want nothing smaller.I believe those who rely on birdshot for home defense to be very much in error as it will be reliable only in the very best of ideal circumstances.Such cannot be counted on.As a matter of fact,I keep slug loads just as handy although the magazine is stuffed with buckshot.

 

[flop-shank]

It's my opinion that each and every one of us can find and use logistics which will support our personal preferences.I think it's an example of human nature.

Yup.

Personally,I actually prefer a longer and heavier weapon but to each,his own.Admittedly I'm a fairly big guy with long arms,etc.I simply handle and shoot larger weapons better.

Even though I don't seem to have any difficulty with maneuvering with a full sized piece through hallways,doorways,removing from a vehicle,etc,I can certainly understand the validity of such a position regarding gun length.

I'm a twerp and you're not. That explains the difference in how we like our guns. My Ithaca would drive you nuts.

From a purely home defense perspective,I believe it to be somewhat less important.Speaking personally,I would position myself and remain stationary.The only one moving would be the other guy(s).

That's what I did once I was done getting into position, and I had time enough to get there. Obviously your milage varies, but a short light gun is an advantage when keeping the gun trained on a target.

About buckshot,I'm in complete agreement with those prefering 00 buck.I want nothing smaller.I believe those who rely on birdshot for home defense to be very much in error as it will be reliable only in the very best of ideal circumstances.Such cannot be counted on.

I agree. I run #4 buck in the little Ithaca, because I haven't found a 00 load that the gun and I like yet. At 10 yds. I'm confident that #4 buck will work at the close ranges in my home, but I like the fact that full power 00 projected over the spine will almost certainly become an instant "lights out".