Buckshot for military and paramilitary use

[Naphtali]

Since shotshells are used in duck blinds without much difficulty, I anticipate most bird shot shotshells are effectively weather proofed. Having no experience with shotgun shooting since 1982, and having duck hunted but a single day, I do not know whether buckshot shotshells are loaded to a different standard for use by paramilitary organizations (police, highway patrol, et al.) as well as deer hunting in some areas.

Among commercially available 12 gauge buckshot ammunitions, are there identifiable differences in effectiveness of:
1. Weather proofing?
2. Durability in terms of being "banged" around loose in a haversack-like container?
3. Durability in terms of being stepped on when cartridge is loose on concrete pavement?
4. Durability in terms of being stepped on when atop mud, picked up, and wiped off before using?

If differences are known, as best you can please identify "better" brands and/or buckshot sizes. I'm thinking that perhaps some buckshot sizes tend to pack more poorly than others with the result being ammunition being less securely sealed.

 

[one eye joe]

SHOTGUNS WERE IN USE, IN THE HARSH ENVIRONMENT OF VIETNAM. ALTHOUGH I WAS AWARE OF THEM, I WAS NEVER ISSUED A SHOTGUN, AS A PERSONAL WEAPON. AS A RESULT, I HAVE NO ABILITY TO MAKE AN INFORMED CONTRIBUTION, TO WHAT I BELIEVE WILL BE AN INTERESTING THREAD.....

I HOPE THAT SOME OF MY 'NAM BROTHERS, WHO CARRIED A SHOTGUN ON A REGULAR BASIS, MIGHT WEIGH IN. I'M EAGER TO READ OF THEIR EXPERIENCES, AND THEIR OPINIONS........

IIRC, THE SHOTGUN AMMO WAS #OO BUCK, LABELLED M162. I DON'T RECALL THE MANUFACTURER......

 

[Rpg]

In my experience, modern buckshot ammo is every bit as durable and water resistant as comparable quality birdshot ammo.

 

[dusty3030]

Winchester with the heat sealed crimp is going to water resistant. They market a green hull "military grade" but the SuperX standard red hull is sealed the same.

 

[loc n load]

Two examples of WW buckshot rounds. The black one with blackened brass is a military buckshot round. The red Hull is a buckshot round that my agency issued for decades.
Both rounds contain a poly buffer material that fills in around the large buckshot inside the hull and also serves as a buffer between shot to reduce deformation when this payload is launched.
The military round is sealed around the primer, both rounds have the same crimp.
The weak spot on any shot shell is the crimp, if you drop these on concrete and then step on the end and open up the crimp, it will start leaking buffer material. The deformation will also cause you issues with loading, feeding, clambering, etc. Plus you will have all of those tiny poly buffer spheres in your shotgun, gumming up the works.
Rounds that have been loaded and downloaded from a shotgun will also experience this if they are loaded and down loaded enough.....like at the beginning of the shift and at the end, day after day.
Having been a LEO shotgun instructor for 30 years I have never seen a shotgun round fail due to being wet, or otherwise. I have seen many examples where rounds were leaking buffer and the buckshot was rattling around in them.
I have instructed in the rain and snow many times, and seen many rounds dropped on wet or snow covered ground. However I haven’t soaked any in a bucket for hours or scuba dived with any either.
I have hunted with shotguns for 50 plus years and have dropped rounds into the water, and never had an issue with them not firing.
Military useage, particularly in wet humid climes will favor the sealed primer. Particularly in the jungle, or maritime operations where you may experience prolonged moisture.
In regards to beating loose shotgun rounds around in any kind of bag, I would not recommend it. Shotgun ammo for serious useage should be kept free for being damaged, deformed or acquiring contaminants, and any kind of loose ammo can be a safety issue.
Concerning dropping them in the mud or sand and wiping them off and then loading them into a shotgun, I would not recommend that other than in dire situations, as you are probably going to introduce grit, dirt and contaminants into the mag tube and action.
As far as brands, Winchester and Federal slug and buckshot loads are what I used on the job for several decades and have supervised thousands of them being expended in training. WW and Federal is what my “ go to” shotguns are loaded with. All the military shotgun ammo I have seen was Winchester.

 

[nachogrande]

^^^^^^ THIS.

I've certainly hunted in rain & wet conditions. Sometimes shotgun rounds found their way to the bottom of a wet duck boat, (even some handloaded rounds) & I've never had one fail. I did try to keep them as dry as possible however & agree the crimp would be the most likely weak spot. I've run handloaded pistol rounds thru the washer/dryer with no problems, but I wouldn't want to trust my life on a prolonged submerged shotgun round. A good test for someone to try. I have no current plans on submerging any of my ammo, especially S/D ammo.

 

[one eye joe]

Two examples of WW buckshot rounds. The black one with blackened brass is a military buckshot round. The red Hull is a buckshot round that my agency issued for decades.
Both rounds contain a poly buffer material that fills in around the large buckshot inside the hull and also serves as a buffer between shot to reduce deformation when this payload is launched.
The military round is sealed around the primer, both rounds have the same crimp.
The weak spot on any shot shell is the crimp, if you drop these on concrete and then step on the end and open up the crimp, it will start leaking buffer material. The deformation will also cause you issues with loading, feeding, clambering, etc. Plus you will have all of those tiny poly buffer spheres in your shotgun, gumming up the works.
Rounds that have been loaded and downloaded from a shotgun will also experience this if they are loaded and down loaded enough.....like at the beginning of the shift and at the end, day after day.
Having been a LEO shotgun instructor for 30 years I have never seen a shotgun round fail due to being wet, or otherwise. I have seen many examples where rounds were leaking buffer and the buckshot was rattling around in them.
I have instructed in the rain and snow many times, and seen many rounds dropped on wet or snow covered ground. However I haven’t soaked any in a bucket for hours or scuba dived with any either.
I have hunted with shotguns for 50 plus years and have dropped rounds into the water, and never had an issue with them not firing.
Military useage, particularly in wet humid climes will favor the sealed primer. Particularly in the jungle, or maritime operations where you may experience prolonged moisture.
In regards to beating loose shotgun rounds around in any kind of bag, I would not recommend it. Shotgun ammo for serious useage should be kept free for being damaged, deformed or acquiring contaminants, and any kind of loose ammo can be a safety issue.
Concerning dropping them in the mud or sand and wiping them off and then loading them into a shotgun, I would not recommend that other than in dire situations, as you are probably going to introduce grit, dirt and contaminants into the mag tube and action.
As far as brands, Winchester and Federal slug and buckshot loads are what I used on the job for several decades and have supervised thousands of them being expended in training. WW and Federal is what my “ go to” shotguns are loaded with. All the military shotgun ammo I have seen was Winchester.

THANKS FOR A VERY INFORMATIVE POST, loc n load. THIS IS JUST THE TYPE OF INFO THAT I WAS HOPING TO READ......

I LEAN TOWARD FEDERAL, FOR GENERAL USE AMMO, ACROSS THE BOARD. THEIR SOFTER PRIMERS PROMOTE RELIABLE IGNITION......

 

[Nevada Ed]

"Not hunted ducks since 1982".........

Can't afford steel pellets?


Carry loose in a pack..........
most have the rounds in the weapon and on a butt stock ammo holder.

Stepped on......
You might want to find another weapon besides a shotgun for SD use.

Seems to me you might need to read up a little more.

 

[AJ]

In the late 1980's and early 1990's the USMC Security Force Battalions used 00 Buck and slugs. These were plastic cased, never saw a problem with any of them. We were going through so many rounds that the Corps went to commercial sources to obtain them for training. I have several wooden ammo cases filled with most brands of both OO and slug for a rainy day.

 

[4506517]

We issue and use Federal Reduced Recoil Tactical 12 gauge buck shot.

I think the Federal item # is LE127. We issued a different type of Federal until a few years ago. I want to say that was LE132 maybe?

Based on my experience, these are durable rounds. I have stored them loose, had them soaked, frozen, sat in a hot trunk during a North Carolina summer, and had 0 failures with them.

IN MY EXPERIENCE, I find that Federal makes good, durable, accurate 12 gauge buck shot.

 

[one eye joe]

We issue and use Federal Reduced Recoil Tactical 12 gauge buck shot.

I think the Federal item # is LE127. We issued a different type of Federal until a few years ago. I want to say that was LE132 maybe?

Based on my experience, these are durable rounds. I have stored them loose, had them soaked, frozen, sat in a hot trunk during a North Carolina summer, and had 0 failures with them.

IN MY EXPERIENCE, I find that Federal makes good, durable, accurate 12 gauge buck shot.

I FAVOR FEDERAL, ALSO. IMHO, ITS GOOD RELIABLE AMMO, ACROSS THE BOARD........

THAT BEING SAID, I MUST CONFESS THAT CCI MINI MAGS ARE MY .22LR OF CHOICE, FOR BULLSEYE AND FIELD USE---AND SPEER GOLD DOT, .38 SPL+P, JHP FOR SHORT BARRELS, IS MY EDC, SD&HD LOAD......

IMHO, THEY ARE EACH A CUT ABOVE THE COMPETITION, FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE.......

 

[one eye joe]

"Not hunted ducks since 1982".........

Can't afford steel pellets?


Carry loose in a pack..........
most have the rounds in the weapon and on a butt stock ammo holder.

Stepped on......
You might want to find another weapon besides a shotgun for SD use.

Seems to me you might need to read up a little more.

DON'T YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE BEING A BIT HARSH HERE, Nevada Ed ? THIS GUY SEEMS TO BE POSTING HONEST QUESTIONS, THAT SOME OF OUR FORUM MEMBERS, MIGHT HELP HIM WITH. I HAVE OFTEN READ A STATEMENT ON THIS FORUM, USUALLY MEANT TO ENCOURAGE A NEWBEE TO PARTICIPATE, THAT GOES SOMETHING LIKE. "NO QUESTION IS TOO STUPID TO ASK".....

I AGREE THAT HE MIGHT READ MORE. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. EVEN AFTER MY 60 YEARS OF SHOOTING EXPERIENCE, I CONTINUE TO LEARN, AND BENEFIT BY READING---INCLUDING WHAT I READ ON THIS FORUM.....

I CONFESS THAT I HAVE NEVER HUNTED DUCKS---NOT EVEN IN 1982---SO IN THIS AREA, HE IS MORE EXPERIENCED THAN I AM. I DON'T EAT DUCK, SO I SEE NO REASON FOR ME TO KILL THEM. I HAVE HUNTED UPLAND BIRDS, RABBITS, AND DEER, WITH A SHOTGUN, IN THE WOODS OF NEW ENGLAND, HOWEVER. ALL OF THOSE CRITTERS END UP IN A PAN......

 

[Fishinfool]

We were issued Remington 2 3/4 inch buckshot in sizes #4 buck and #00, for use in model 870's. While they always fired reliably, they did tend to leak buffer material when stored in the guns magazine tube. Given enough time and loading / unloading cycles, it tended to make a mess in the shotguns.

Don't know how other brands perform, as the Remington was the only buffered shotshells I have used with any frequency.

Larry

 

[one eye joe]

We were issued Remington 2 3/4 inch buckshot in sizes #4 buck and #00, for use in model 870's. While they always fired reliably, they did tend to leak buffer material when stored in the guns magazine tube. Given enough time and loading / unloading cycles, it tended to make a mess in the shotguns.

Don't know how other brands perform, as the Remington was the only buffered shotshells I have used with any frequency.

Larry

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT, Larry. THAT'S VALUABLE INFO. I NEVER LIKED REMINGTON AMMO, IN ANY CALIBER, FOR ANY PURPOSE........

 

[chief38]

I use to routinely carry spare Pheasant Loads in a belt while in the Field Hunting. Early in the morning the Fields are generally wet from either rain, dew, or snow and the belt with the Shells in it would get pretty wet. A few years back I switched to carrying spare Shells in the pocket of my Hunting Vest - just so I could shed a little weight while tromping around the Field.

I've also been victim to a sudden shower that the Weatherman got wrong and again the result was the ammo & belt got very wet. I would dry them off along with what ever Shotgun I also had in the Field and I've not had one single round ever fail. Now granted they did get wet but were never submersed in water, therefore I would label them as water resistant. If they were to be submerged in water for a length of time, I question just how "water-proof" they would be. I would think that Military issue Shot Shells might have an extra level of treatment just for this reason but don't know for sure.

 

[Shotguncoach]

I don't have direct LE or MIL experience with shotgun usage, but my kids and I shoot 8k-10k rounds of 12 gauge annually in trapshooting competitions. These are a mix of factory new and reloaded shells. My advice to you is to buy a variety of shells and do some destructive testing....I think you'll find that shotgun shells are generally more durable than you think they are.

Trapshooting is a 'rain or shine' sport. The only time we stop is when lightning gets too close. (You are holding a 4+ foot piece of steel after all) I've shot in temperatures ranging from the low 20's to over 110 degrees, rain, snow, you name it. I've dropped shells on concrete, dirt, and mud.

The only issues I've had are with paper hulls (yes, they are still made) swelling up after they have been shot when they are used in heavy rain. Unfired shells have not been a problem.

In my experience, ribbed hulls with ridges are more likely to pick up and retain dirt and grit than smooth hulls, but both can be cleaned with a quick swipe across your shirt or pants. The crimp area can pick up and retain dirt and grit also. Again, wipe it on your pants or blow on it.

I think you'll find that the biggest variable is not the ammo but how your individual firearm handles dirty and deformed shells. That should be the primary focus of your testing.

Good luck with your research.

 

[Naphtali]

I'm a victim of becoming too interested in the AEF where every line company (cannot confirm for HQ, or specialty weapons units) was issued two Winchester Model 1897 12-gauge shotguns. These were not issued to specific sergeants, rather to sergeants when requested.

Ammunition technology was different from Vietnam, which is different from what is currently available. Unless one asks those with experience - who are trustworthy - guesses are the result. As an involuntarily retired manuscript editor-book designer, I would not, have not, will not trust information from unknowns on the Internet.
***
While I'm not overly fond of ducks or geese at the table, in 1982, being a pretty good trap shooter, I was invited to join a friend in his duck blind. He furnished hip boots and mentioned, almost in passing, that I should "watch out" for gumbo mud. Gumbo mud. I waded toward the blind with my Belgian Browning Superposed - fitted to me by "Fred, the Belgian gunsmith" at Eleventh & Olive Browning center. And the gumbo mud took possession of the soles of my hip boots. Since I was moving toward the duck blind and my hip booted legs were not, I slowly began to tip into the Mississippi River. In mid-November. I saved myself from a dunking the only way I could. My Browning for which I had worked two jobs one summer - packing line at Purex, station attendant at G.E.M.'s gasoline station-auto service garage every night. . . . I've never hunted ducks since.
***
I hope this clarifies the open-ended questions of this thread.

 

[amd6547]

Patches Watson was a pretty well known Vietnam SEAL. His favorite weapon for prisoner snatches, ambushes, and assaults was an Ithaca Model 37 with the buttstock sawn off, and a duckbill shot spreader choke on the end. He used #4 buck, and swore by it.
His shotgun is in the SEAL-UDT museum, and his books make interesting reading...he mentions the Model 15 Combat Masterpiece a few times.

 

[lmacrichter]

I have shot many rounds of Remington, Federal and Winchester over the years and in every size from #9 bird shot to 00 buck. I never had a problem with any of them after they all went to plastic in the 60s. Before that when they were cardboard/paper shells you better keep them dry. One that had been wet might go pop and the shot roll out of the barrel or go boom and nearly take your shoulder off. Just a little history from the old days. Probably some others that remember back that far too.