Buffalo Bore .380 "+P" FMJ from LCP

[Erich]

Y'all aren't going to believe this, but the chrono was working perfectly well (calibrated with a known velocity .22 out of a known gun), and this stuff is warm.

One of my Cabela's one-cent-shipping purchases was some Buffalo Bore 95-grain FMJ flat-point .380 "+P" for the LCP. I was not sure that it was a good idea, but I've got an extra-power recoil spring on order from Wolff (who are taking their sweet time delivering, sheesh) and so I thought it might be worth a shot in the little locked-breech gun.

It came in some of the silliest packaging I've ever seen - the tiny .380 cartridges are less than half the height of the styrofoam nests into which they're inserted.

They shot fine. I only shot five. Here are the velocities in FPS (5950'>sea level, 41°F, c. 15% humidity):

1066
1075
1112
1074
1133

M 1092
ES 66.98
SD 29.01

That's really cooking with gas - for any .380, but particularly out of a sub-3" tube. The rounds were decently accurate at ten yards - they'd all group into a heart at that range - but they were not the most accurate round from this gun. I think that the one to the upper left is my fault - they were really snappy and pretty darned unpleasant to shoot.

(Knife point is at point of aim)

It was really snappy and kicked noticeably hard. Primers looked fine (like that means anything) and gun functioned fine. Brass was thrown back about 20 feet. I stripped the gun afterward and examined every stress point I could think of under bright NM sunlight through a magnifying visor. I could find nothing at all out of the ordinary.

Apologies for my crappy cell-phone pictures - I didn't think to bring the camera.

These suckers are going in my gun. The Double Taps are now in the back-up mags.

 

[pps]

Nice, these would probably hit close to 1200 out of my 3" CZ83

In fmj or the hardcast, I'll probably stay with the non +p stuff, just to match my hand loads

 

[rilkil23]

Ruger does not recommend +p ammo in the lcp. You're a big boy so do what you want but I will not be trying them in mine.

 

[Treeman]

Erich, Thanks for the test. While I am susceptible to the typical American male reaction that more must be better, and have loaded some rounds while aboard the Starship Enterprise ("More power Scotty! I need more power!"). I must admit that I am dubious about the wisdom of BB loads in .380. My thinking is this. In the .380 we have a marginal cartridge-one that has demonstrated adequate penetrating ability with non-expanding bullets at 800-1000 fps and marginal penetration with expanding bullets at those velocities due to the light bullet weights. Pushing a solid 10-20% faster doesn't get us anywhere near the velocity levels at which displaced tissues become secondary projectiles causing massive trauma (that being an intermittent and disputed effect found somewhere over 2000 fps) pushing a hollowpoint faster probably wouldn't make it inthe penetration dept either. So , it seems to me that the extra "power" does little to justify the greater recoil and decreased control in the tiny pocket pistols that make this cartridge worthy of consideration.
Only my opinion of course but I have settled on flat-pointed non-expanders at "normal" velocities as the best course in .380

 

[Erich]

Treeman, I think you're completely correct. I've never seen a standard pressure .380 ball round fail to adequately penetrate. And I have real doubts about whether the JHP bullets that BB loads have been designed to operate optimally at the higher velocities.

I think I've just fallen for the All-American "Go Big Or Go Home!" meme - the truth of the matter is that there is no reason at all to depart from warm ball (S&B 92-grain ball does 985 fps from my LCP and Double Tap 95-gr ball does just south of that) from this gun.

I will probably keep the little overpressure BB zingers in my gun anyhow. I don't envision any significantly greater risk of overpenetration given that the bullets are so light, but that's something else for a person to consider before loading up with these.

 

[chief38]

As some of you guys already know, I am a big BB fan and have tested their ammo in .38 Special and .357 Magnum more than a few times over the last few years. The velocity and ft. / lbs of energy generated by BB'a ammo is just indisputable at this point. While testing, I have yet to find any signs of excessive wear, stress or any other abnormalities as Erich has also pointed out. On top of that, their ammo is very accurate, consistent and reliable, which is a lot more than I can say about at least Remington's stuff!

I am NOT a munitions expert, but I certainly know how to read a chronograph, a scale and see the benefits of the BB ammo as opposed to the standard offerings by Remington, Winchester and Federal. It's not so much that Buffalo Bore ammo is too hot as it is that the major ammo manufacturers have watered down their stuff to the extent that it makes BB stuff look too hot. I truly believe that IF Tim Sundles (owner of BB) was over pressurizing his his ammunition that law suits and bad mouthing would have been all over the place by now. I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE THING that was negative about his ammo or his Company as of today, so I have to presume that after all the time he has been producing his brand of ammunition he has only done what he states on his website.

Like everything else in the world, his ammo is not for everybody, and it is still a free Country and so we are still able to purchase what we like as individuals. For me, I have converted all my carry ammo over to BB until either something better comes along, or I find a reason not too. I have not tested the BB .380 acp's so I can not personally comment on them, but I will say that every other load I have tested from his Company did EXACTLY what he states on his charts and therefore I would think that his .380's would follow suit.

Chief38

 

[pps]

Treeman, I think you're completely correct. I've never seen a standard pressure .380 ball round fail to adequately penetrate. And I have real doubts about whether the JHP bullets that BB loads have been designed to operate optimally at the higher velocities.

I think I've just fallen for the All-American "Go Big Or Go Home!" meme - the truth of the matter is that there is no reason at all to depart from warm ball (S&B 92-grain ball does 985 fps from my LCP and Double Tap 95-gr ball does just south of that) from this gun.

I will probably keep the little overpressure BB zingers in my gun anyhow. I don't envision any significantly greater risk of overpenetration given that the bullets are so light, but that's something else for a person to consider before loading up with these.

My 380 is usually stoked with wwb 95 grain flat nose. I have about 1k rounds of the S&B 92 grain fmj that I feel just fine carrying too. I'm sure either of these will penetrate nicely.

 

[Erich]

It's not so much that Buffalo Bore ammo is too hot as it is that the major ammo manufacturers have watered down their stuff to the extent that it makes BB stuff look too hot.

One note: This statement is just not correct in the case of the .380. The BB .380 "+P" ammo is definitely amped up over anything that's ever been sold as a .380 - I've shot 9x17/9mm Kurz/Corto ammo going back to the teens. I don't necessarily disagree with regard to the other rounds you mention, as my handloading posts here over the last decade can attest.

 

[30-30remchester]

Somewhere in the archives I have posted actual photos of 380 ACP,s that I recovered from big game. These are actual results from downed game animals. If you search the archive i think some will be enlightened.

 

[Erich]

What a mysterious post! Somehow I don't think your photos will show 12" wound tracks together with blossomed expansion to .60", but who knows what mysteries await!

Well, here's the thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/202500-380-duty-ammo.html

It shows beautifully blossomed bullets (without any deformation or gunk in them - they've expanded as perfectly as you'd expect from shooting water), but the photos of the game animals (recently killed antelopes) and the wound tracks seem to have been misplaced. Fortunately, we have your report as to how you came to have this photo of these beautifully deformed projectiles. Very interesting!

 

[ThePhotog]

Not to knock BB ammo, but I'm a huge fan of Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I've seen first had what the 90gr 380 did in an actual shooting situation.

 

[scarecrow734]

i have a early lcp bought it in late 08 i believe. and from day 1 i have had it loaded with BB i have shot the gun enuff with the bb ammo to know how it will react what to expect and just see how the gun handles it. as of today i still load it with bb ammo. i have not found a 380 round that will outperform the bb. i have my mags loades with the 100gr hardcast and the 90gr jhp. the mags are loaded every other. hc,jhp,hc,jhp...etc...i have penetration and expansion.

 

[30-30remchester]

What a mysterious post! Somehow I don't think your photos will show 12" wound tracks together with blossomed expansion to .60", but who knows what mysteries await!

Well, here's the thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/202500-380-duty-ammo.html

It shows beautifully blossomed bullets (without any deformation or gunk in them - they've expanded as perfectly as you'd expect from shooting water), but the photos of the game animals (recently killed antelopes) and the wound tracks seem to have been misplaced. Fortunately, we have your report as to how you came to have this photo of these beautifully deformed projectiles. Very interesting!

Didnt get around to photographing the antelopes. They were does and just freezer food. I had never tried photographing wound channels till this year. These are the actual bullets that were washed to remove blood and bone prior to weighing and prior to photographing. When I hunt I seldon carry a camera, however I do have a crude cell phone pic of the mule deer. Having hit no bone on either entrance or coming to rest spot. Again most of the penatration was lungs. Not much resistence in lung tissue. Later that year I used the same 380 ACP to shoot an average sized mule deer buck in the neck. I was using the Buffalo Bore 95 grain fnfmj ammo. Range @5 feet. I shot for the spinal column in the neck with 2 shots. Upon arriving back at the skinning shed I quickly skinned back the neck skin and found the bullets had not made it through the neck bone. Setting the head and neck on a stump outdoors to trace and recover the bullets in the morning. In the morning I discovered the head had been confinscated by coyotes or dogs. I followed the tracks for a distance but lost them and the head and neck, so little evidence can de derived from this experemint. Another note I used a snub nosed 38 special on another doe antelope later, using Cor-Bons 110 grain DPX's. Two shots at the same angle, last rib to off side shoulder. Both of these bullets encountered bones and both bullets showed deformed pedals. Actual tissue damage was quite small, not much bloodshot meat. Actually was able to eat right up to the bullet hole. I have been collecting actual recovered bullets for years and have close to 200 recovered from game animals.

 

[Erich]

Reporting back on the Buffalo Bore 95-gr "+P" .380 FMJ-FP from the LCP.

I installed the extra-power Wolff recoil springs and took it out to the range yesterday. 40°F, unpleasantly strong headwind, 5950'>sea level, c. 10% humidity.

M 1098 fps
ES 30
SD: 12.19

The heavier recoils springs made the gun a small bit less unpleasant to shoot. Imagine you're playing table tennis and your partner accidentally whacks the fingers of your strong hand with his racket - not debilitating enough to distract an experienced shooter, but unpleasant enough to be noticeable - particularly in a cold headwind.

Man, Sundles makes good ammo, though. The stuff was accurate (no pix this time, but the only reason that this was over 1" at ten yards was due to issues with the shooter) and consistent.