Buffalo Bore failure? Five shots = seven holes!!??

[feralcatkillr]

Sorry if this is lengthy, but what follows is a range report (to show that the issue at hand is not a gun- or shooter-caused problem) followed by a description of some oddly behaving Buffalo Bore loads.

Background: I recently posted here that I was buying a beautiful little Model 60 "Pro Series" with the 3" barrel. I finally got my initial range time this weekend with the 60 and – given its light weight and short sight radius – it has all the accuracy I could hope for out of a "kit gun" style of revolver.

My goal was to shoot a variety of ammo and find loads that it likes in the two categories of "light" (plinking / small game) .38 special loads, and "heavy" (camping / hiking) .357 or .38 +P loads. Initial shooting was slow and deliberate single-action, seated with hands supported, at a distance of 30 feet. "Backstop" was a muddy hill and about 20 miles of cornfields.

I know the gun is inherently accurate because it shot three groups of Federal "American Eagle" .357 magnums (158gr JSP) into wonderful, 1" groups. And it shot those groups at the very end of the range session – i.e. there was no advantage of a clean barrel. On the other hand, 15 rounds of full-power magnums from a 22 ounce gun was quite enough.

At the other end of the power spectrum, the revolver also liked Remington .38 special 158 gr. LSWC. These shot about 1.5" groups and hit slightly lower than the magnums.

The problem arose as I was testing some stuff in the medium "everyday carry" range of the power spectrum. I was looking for either a "powder puff" .357 load or a hot / premium-brand .38 +P. And I thought I had a pretty good strategy: I was going to sight in using the inexpensive CCI Blazer aluminum-case .357s (158gr JHP @ rated about 1150 fps) then assumed they would hit at about the same point of impact as the high-dollar Buffalo Bore .38 +Ps (158gr, LSWCHP-GC, aka lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint gas-check, rated at about 1160 fps) which would be my preferred carry round.

The good news: the cheap Blazer stuff shot great! The recoil was easy to manage and groups were about 1.5 to 2", and much of that variance was probably me. I was also pretty impressed with the expansion of the bullets I later dug out of the muddy field; they generally mushroomed well.

Buffalo Bore +Ps, however, behaved very wierd and I stopped after three cylinders. The first group was about five or six inches across, and was made up of seven (!) perfectly round holes (not sideways keyholes.) Recall, this is a five-shot cylinder. It appeared that four of those holes were really two "paired fliers" way off to the left of the target. In other words there was a hole with a suspicous partner hole about a half-inch away. I then shot a second group with a clean target (thinking that perhaps I was going crazy and hadn't put up a clean, new target the first time) and shot extremely slowly and deliberately, getting another huge (5-6") pattern but only five holes. I then put up another new target and shot deliberately again, yielding a second wide-strung seven-hole target!

I then put away the remaining five rounds in that box of Buffalo Bore, but did inspect the spent casings carefully. Not being a reloader, I'm not fully versed on signs of over-pressure, but couldn't find anything unusual except that a few of the casings had primer strike holes that weren't just dented in, but blackend, as if they had burned through just a tiny bit. Is that a sign of an over-pressure load?

Obviously I'll be getting on the horn with B.B. themselves and have nothing against them (have always been impressed with their loads in the past) but wanted to put this out there for the impartial and collective wisdom of the group. What exactly is happening here? Presumably that gas check is some sort of heavier alloy or brass (?) check at the base of the bullet and the logical guess is that it's coming apart en route to the target. But I also presume it's not supposed to do that.

Thoughts?

 

[chipking]

First thought is "forget shooting the Buffalo Bore" Second thought is "carry the Blazer".
The blackened primer dents sound like pierced primers and could be pressure or soft primer indications. If you have access to a good strong magnifying glass or loupe you may want to examine the primers closely for a small hole and the firing pin nose for roundness and for cutting damage from the hot gases that escaped the fired case.
The multiple holes sound like the gas check ( a caliber size copper cup) was not crimped on the base of the bullet sufficiently and departed in flight. This is not supposed to happen and will assuredly mess up your accuracy.
Pressure signs can be the pierced primer or flattening of the primer. On the older firing pin on the hammer guns the flattening is pretty easy to spot. If you look at an unfired round you will note that the edge of the primer is rounded. If it still looks rounded on the fired case then pressure is probably OK. As pressures go up that rounded edge gets more square and if pressures get too high that edge can actually go out into the primer pocket bevel instead of being rounded in.
On the modern guns with the bushing and floating firing pin it is harder to spot because the bushing tends to make the entire primer face slightly domed in which sharpens the look of the edge of the primer even at normal pressure levels.
Chip King

 

[feralcatkillr]

Thanks. I sent Buffalo Bore a message.

And BTW, agree on the "carry the Blazer" comment. I see some people bad-mouth them, but they always seem to go "boom" (but not "ka-boom"!) with every trigger pull and hit accurately. And they expanded consistently in the mud 10+ yards downrange out of a short 3" barrel.

 

[blujax01]

Thanks. I sent Buffalo Bore a message.

And BTW, agree on the "carry the Blazer" comment. I see some people bad-mouth them, but they always seem to go "boom" (but not "ka-boom"!) with every trigger pull and hit accurately. And they expanded consistently in the mud 10+ yards downrange out of a short 3" barrel.

But they don't cost a buck-and-a-half each.

They can't be any good!

 

[feralcatkillr]

Update: Got a response within the hour from Buffalo Bore, which is excellent customer service at any time, and truly no small feat during the current arms/ammo craziness.

The correspondent said that, "Yes gas checks can and do peel off after leaving the muzzle. You should not be seeing high pressure signs unless you have fired pure lead bullets prior to firing ours. This link will help you understand that issue."

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=53

Indeed, I had fired about 25 rounds each of Remington .38 Special LSWC and Federal LRN. After that I moved to about 25 rounds each of JHP and JSPs from Blazer and Federal (with no accuracy issues, etc.) then to Buffalo Bore.

Perhaps those ~50 rounds of non-jacketed bullets leaded the barrel? The Federal ones were cheap WalMart junk and did feel very soft. I'm wondering if I should clean it thoroughly and try again with a B.B. round or two. Must one use a lead removal tool?

 

[tac803]

Anybody else there might have put a couple holes in your target instead of theirs?

 

[Delos]

Stuff Happens?

Anybody else there might have put a couple holes in your target instead of theirs?

Yes, about 55 or 60 years ago I closed my eyes when I pulled the trigger and kicked some rocks up on the target. But the target was sitting at ground level, not up on a stick.

 

[rwsmith]

What were the velocities...

What were the velocities on the lead ammunition? Soft lead will start to lead the barrel at around 1100 ft/sec.

BTW - My curiosity would get the better of me and I'd have to try the BBs again in a clean barrel and see if the results are the same. They are a little pricey to experiment with but inquiring minds want to know.

 

[chipking]

While I applaud the rapid response from BB . I will have to take exception to the content. You had 4 occurrences (at least) of the gas check separating from the bullet in 15 rounds. I can only speak from personal experience but I have fired well over 2 thousand 357 SWCHP gas checked bullets and have NEVER had an extra hole in my target.
I also don't think the few 38 special rounds that you shot before would have caused sufficient leading to overpressure the BB rounds.
Scrub your bore until spotless then fire some more of the BB bullets and I suspect you will see the same results.
Chip King

 

[feralcatkillr]

Good question about other people on the range. The "range" was a picnic table in my cousin's back yard and his cornfields beyond, so no chance of that. I was the only one there.

Here are a couple pics of the primers, as best as I can do with my camera. The first photo shows some fired cases and the second one shows an unfired one in there. I also looked through my jeweler's loupe. To my untrained eye, I can't really see that the primers are flattened all the way to the edge. there is still some roundness right near the edge, but the majority of the primer is pretty flat. Some are flatter than others. A few I can see where the roundness protrudes much further into the primer and under my loupe they look like little donuts, but they are in the minority. It does look from this photo that the two primers that burned through a bit (top one, and far right) retained more "roundness" than the pair that didn't burn through.

That said, the Federal/American Eagle JSP cases look about the same though -- at least in terms of flatness. So the only three characteristics that clearly set the Buffalo Bore rounds apart from all the other brands I fired are still: (a) abysmal accuracy, (b) too many holes in the paper, and (c) a few burned through primers.

As an addendum, B.B. e-mailed again and said (as you have) to clean the bore really well and make sure to run a dry patch through it to get any residual oil, etc. out. I had already done that before the initial range session. Don't know when I'll get time for that, but maybe in the next couple weeks.

 

[kaaskop49]

By all means use the CCI Blazer 158gr .357 JHPs! They are a great round for K-frame and steel J-frame magnums. I can't shoot enough of them. As you said, not as hot as 'regular' 158gr Mags, yet not a powder puff.

As to B-B, I have no experience with them. From what you write, it seems you are getting 'footwork.' Have they asked you to ship back the unused rounds, or offered to replace them?

 

[MikeWinVA]

For grins get that magnifying glass out and examine your firing pin.

Open the cylinder, press in the rear cylinder latch and gently cycle the hammer and seat it with the trigger pulled. This will expose the firing pin. The pin should have a rounded end not pointy or sharp.

FWIW CCI is known to have the hardest primers out there. If your firing pin is defective, has a burr or sharp point, the CCI primers would be the least likely to show it.

Usually, a blown primer is a sign of over pressure and 2 of the casings shown appear to have flattened primers. The only reason I mention the above is that your gun is new and possibly the pin was malformed or too long.

BB may just not work well with your gun. All guns are different and some ammo that works well in one may not in the other.

 

[brokenprism]

But they don't cost a buck-and-a-half each.

They can't be any good!

Was looking at a box of Blazer .44 mag LSWC -- my favorite load type -- at a good price (not a buck a round ; ) but I kept passing on it because it was Blazer. I don't reload, so what's my problem? I'd better go buy it.

 

[feralcatkillr]

For grins get that magnifying glass out and examine your firing pin.

Open the cylinder, press in the rear cylinder latch and gently cycle the hammer and seat it with the trigger pulled. This will expose the firing pin. The pin should have a rounded end not pointy or sharp.

FWIW CCI is known to have the hardest primers out there. If your firing pin is defective, has a burr or sharp point, the CCI primers would be the least likely to show it.

Usually, a blown primer is a sign of over pressure and 2 of the casings shown appear to have flattened primers. The only reason I mention the above is that your gun is new and possibly the pin was malformed or too long.

BB may just not work well with your gun. All guns are different and some ammo that works well in one may not in the other.

First, I didn't know you could do that trick with pressing the cylinder latch rearward with the cylinder swung out! Learned something new today! Anyway... all I have at the moment is the loupe and not a magnifying glass, so I can't get in there and really focus in, but it feels pretty smooth. Maybe just a the tiniest bit flat on the point, but nothing "sharp".

Second, none of the primers in the Federal, Remington or CCI loads were burned through. So, I'm proceeding with the hypothesis that it's an issue with the load and will be testing that by taking it back to the range with an über-clean bore.

 

[tac803]

I've never seen primers like that on a pistol cartridge. They look almost like shotgun primers, but my eyes aren't what they used to be.

 

[blujax01]

One of them definitely has a hole in it. That ain't good. If a reloader posted a picture like that, all of the "Factory Defensive Ammunition Only" guys would be saying: "See, see!!! I told you to leave it to the professionals."

 

[Hoptoad]

The multiple holes sound like the gas check ( a caliber size copper cup) was not crimped on the base of the bullet sufficiently and departed in flight. This is not supposed to happen and will assuredly mess up your accuracy.
Pressure signs can be the pierced primer or flattening of the primer.
Chip King

My thoughts, too. BB does load hot and others have expressed pressure concerns in the past about their loads.

 

[Thecount1980]

One of them definitely has a hole in it. That ain't good. If a reloader posted a picture like that, all of the "Factory Defensive Ammunition Only" guys would be saying: "See, see!!! I told you to leave it to the professionals."

Yep, the Starline brass in the far right of both pics clearly has burn-through. I'd be back in contact with BB for sure. I've used BB in the past and actually keep my 45colt SAA loaded with some, so I've got nothing against them. But that shouldn't be happening with their ammo. If that happened to ammo I was loading, I'd back WAY off the charge and make sure nothing else was fishy.

 

[Delos]

Double check everything, use wire brush in cylinder.

I have also never seen a primer like that in a handgun cartridge. (If you bought them yourself at a store you might want to look very close at any cartridges that you buy there in the future. Some employee might be switching reloads for new cartridges).

Different primers ignite powder at different rates. You might notice in reloading manuals some slow burning powders are sometimes ignited with magnum primers. (Yes someone's reload can blow up your gun).

If I were you I would send your primer picture to BB and ask if they ever use a primer like that in .38 Special.

I would never shoot a +P non jacketed .38 special lead bullet in a .357.
I assume you know the leading danger is not as much the barrel as it is the ridge in the cylinder. The shell in 38 special is shorter than .357 and that difference in length is where the lead and powder debris collects in the cylinder. And that is where the .357 will seat to firmly when that area is leaded up. If your .357 cartridges drop in the cylinder with just their own weight all is probably fine. If you must push them in with your finger or thumb then stop and wire brush (wild guess based on what I have read).

So be sure to use a brass wire .38 (.357) cal gun brush several times in each of the 6 chambers of the cylinder.

(Long ago) After I fired lead .38 special in a .357 I would hold down the extractor star with my thumb while pulling back the brush so any broken wire bristles have less chance of getting under your extractor. When done check under the extractor visually, and look at your cylinder crane and frame where it closes. Best not to get wire bristles there either and if you hold your revolver in off hand with two middle fingers supporting the cylinder upward, that is probably where you will see broken wires first, in a few years.

(Note, new wire brushes seldom break wire bristles. After years of use, when it starts breaking them often, it is time to buy a new brush).

 

[chief38]

My question to you is where did you get that batch of BB ammo from? I have used lots of BB ammo and have a bunch more in stock and have NEVER seen primers like the ones on your photo's.

If you got them from someone I would be suspicious of re-loads" and if you got them from a reputable retailer I would DEFINITELY send them off to Tim Sundles who is the owner of BB ammo Corp. Something seems "funny" here!