Bullet Crimping

[GypsmJim]

A friend who is a novice reloader showed me some of his ammo. .38 spl with 148 gr. wadcutters. He bought a 4-die Lee set and used the FCD instead of the bullet seating die. I was disturbed at what I saw.

Approximately 1/16 of the end of the case was basically flattened against the bullet. Not a nice light turn into the crimping groove. I believe that they were so tight that an inertial bullet puller would not have been able to pull the bullets.

I suggested he discard the batch because I was concerned that it might cause excessive pressure and potentially do some damage. Was my assessment correct?

 

[stansdds]

Are you saying the edge of the case mouth was almost completely rolled over the face of the wadcutter bullet or that the first 1/16" was pressed to the side of the bullet? Either way, with a light charge of something like the classic 2.7 grains of Bullseye, the crimp is not likely to raise combustion pressure to dangerous levels, but overly heavy crimps can damage the bullet and accuracy can suffer.

 

[ppeeks]

What do you mean by "used the FCD instead of the bullet seating die"? He crimped before seating the bullet? Or without seating the bullet first at all? there is almost no chance that the rounds would chamber, but even if some would, there is absolutely no chance that they are in spec. Everything that is not in spec is either discarded or repaired back to in spec. Your friend needs to do a bit of reading, or just watching YouTubes, before he makes his next attempt. Everyone makes mistakes; what he does about it going forward is more important.

 

[smoothshooter]

First off, 148 gr. wadcutters need little or no crimp anyway.
I taper crimp lead AND jacketed bullets varying degrees depending on the recoil level. Also, wadcutters are normally (but not always) seated flush with the case mouth.
Taper crimping is more tolerant of slight variations in case length.
Roll crimping will cause widespread variations in case mouth/crimp tension, which may not be conducive to consistent points of impact on the target.

As for an answer to your question, it’s hard to make a recommendation without seeing pictures.

 

[GypsmJim]

Sorry for any confusion.

The case was pressed into the side of the bullet, not over the face.

The FCD was used AFTER the bullet was seated. Obviously, not reading the instructions is a failure no matter what task one is doing.

 

[Alk8944]

First, there is no amount of crimp in any handgun cartridge that can raise pressures to a dangerous level with normal loads, least of all a .38 Spl. wad-cutter load. The only issue with what he has done is to possibly negatively affect accuracy. So forget about possible pressure implications.

Second, using the FCD with any cartridge that only needs a moderate roll crimp is a waste of time. I assume from your post that that you reload yourself. Why don't you invite him over to your place and show him how to properly load .38 wad-cutters?

Unfortunately the "old saw", that men do not read instructions or ask directions, is all too often true! This seems to be a perfect example of that!

Not only do I have well over 60 years experience reloading, (more than 100 different calibers) I graduated from a college level study course where one of the class subjects for credit! was reloading!

 

[GypsmJim]

Why don't you invite him over to your place and show him how to properly load .38 wad-cutters?

I did exactly that. Before he ever started on his own. I showed him how to roll crimp a bullet with a canneleur, which is what he had.

After having a discussion after I saw the abomination, he said that he "thought" the FCD was better.

It made me wonder, to the point that I bought a FCD myself, just for grins and giggles. Following the directions no matter what I did I could not duplicate the flat at the case mouth.

 

[llowry61]

Certain personalities don't integrate well with reloading. I guessed before reading that his response would be that he built a better mousetrap. Folks with that mindset and little knowledge scare me.

I saw a few guys employ that thinking when I was learning to fly and nothing good came from it. I think one of them got his ticket the other never did. It is like an A&P mechanic deciding that a maintenance bulletin is just dumb, so they don't do it.

 

[38SPL HV]

Recommendation to your friend…read, reread Lee’s instructions… repeat. I like the Lee carbide FCD…I do half turn on 38 Spl standard velocity rounds…3/4 turn with 38 Spl+P loadings…no bullet creep in my S&W Airweights.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

There are actually three different LEE Crimp Dies for caliber 38/357...

The Carbide Factory Crimp Die has a resizing ring and applies a roll crimp.

The Collet Style Factory Crimp Die applies a rifle-style (collet) crimp.

There is also a 38/357 Taper Crimp Die as well.

The Collet Style Die can leave a ring at the rim of the case as describe by the OP. It would not necessarilly be the correct application, however: most likely not...

Cheers!

 

[Forrest r]

No real harm done & more importantly lessons learned.

Glad you're helping a new reloader.

 

[stansdds]

Sorry for any confusion.

The case was pressed into the side of the bullet, not over the face.

The FCD was used AFTER the bullet was seated. Obviously, not reading the instructions is a failure no matter what task one is doing.

Ok, those loads will be safe to shoot, but accuracy may not be the best, but the brass will be reusable. It is highly advisable to read and fully understand the instructions as well as the principles of safely reloading ammo.

 

[mikerjf]

Have him look at a factory round, and work towards that?

 

[TheTinMan]

Have him look at a factory round, and work towards that?

That is a great suggestion.

To everyone saying “this guy doesn’t have the right mindset” remember he went to a mentor’s house to get instruction first. Sure, he thought he knew better buying a Lee crimp die (who knows which one?), but he was smart enough to look at the end product, question the result, and go back to his mentor to ask “How does this look to you?”

There is a veritable army of ardent advocates for the Lee Factory Crimp die on every firearms forum, YouTube, and elsewhere. If he did some research, as he should, it’s not surprising that he thought “I need to use this.”

My advice would be to get a Redding Profile Crimp die and make it look like factory ammo. Or have his buddy (the OP) set up the dies for him the first time, explaining what he’s doing and why.

 

[gwpercle]

Bullet Pulling Tip :
Break the crimps grip on the bullet by seating the bullet just a little deeper , say 1/32" ... or the thickness of your thumbnail ... old school instructions !
Do this with military ammo too ... breaking the crimp allows much easier bullet pulling with an inertia puller .
Gary

 

[taz666]

Seems like a lot of people recommend using a FCD ... I don't so, what am I missing out on
I flare the case enough so there isn't any issue using a combination seat/crimp die for pistols and revolvers.



The OP friend is loading target ammo. Shouldn't need the extra step involved with a FCD anyway. Probably best that he set that die aside for now.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In my 38 spl loads, I try to use a minimum crimp on my loads, if used,

to try and help the cases last a lot longer, from over working the "Brass".

A "Real" crimp on a load for me, is a 80% power factor or hunting load
where the bullet might jump, on the weapons recoil, and usually placed
on a "Can".

Tight groups.

 

[rwsmith]

And I thought that....

And I thought that I was heavy handed.

 

[ppeeks]

Seems like a lot of people recommend using a FCD ... I don't so, what am I missing out on
I flare the case enough so there isn't any issue using a combination seat/crimp die for pistols and revolvers.

....

I do use the combination RCBS seating/crimp dies for some calibers. But the real advantage of the Lee FCD is that it ALSO sizes the case again -- after the seating (at a previous stage on the tool head) and crimping (in the FCD) operations. It virtually eliminates the issue that an occasional case is bulged. If a round goes into and back out of the FCD, it will chamber.

That's not so critical for my lower volume reloading calibers, or revolver-only calibers where I will discover any bulged rounds when I try to load them one at a time. But for high volume 9mm reloading and some others that are used in magazines and get chambered by the gun's action and not one at a time by me, it is just another quality control tool.

 

[taz666]

I do use the combination RCBS seating/crimp dies for some calibers. But the real advantage of the Lee FCD is that it ALSO sizes the case again -- after the seating (at a previous stage on the tool head) and crimping (in the FCD) operations. It virtually eliminates the issue that an occasional case is bulged. If a round goes into and back out of the FCD, it will chamber.

That's not so critical for my lower volume reloading calibers, or revolver-only calibers where I will discover any bulged rounds when I try to load them one at a time. But for high volume 9mm reloading and some others that are used in magazines and get chambered by the gun's action and not one at a time by me, it is just another quality control tool.

Resizing with the bullet in a bulging case isn't quality control though. You're changing the bullet diameter.


As you may know, there's a few reasons for bulging cases. If it is just the "occasional" case, I'd be inclined to think that brand of case interior may not be suited to the bullet size, weight or oal length being loaded. Figure out why it won't chamber and either toss it or use it for a more appropriate loading.


Now that you're using the FCD exclusively you don't really know how "occasional" the issue is.