C&R FFL and the USPS

[quinn]

I've applied for my C&R license and have been checking on the shipping requirements. I have read the USPS regs a couple of times and cannot find any reference to C&R guns or license. Does anyone know whether a C&R licensee can legally mail (USPS) a C&R eligible handgun to an eligible recipient? I have been told both yes and no. Thanks.

 

[TSQUARED]

As I understand it the C&R does not qualify for shipment by USPS.

 

[mcnee229]

There is nothing specific in the Domestic Mail Manual to C&R firearms that I know of, but there is a section on firearms: DMM 601 Mailability

I would print that out and take it with you when you go to mail it, it made it a lot easier to convince the folks at the post office that it was kosher.

ETA: looks like I spoke too soon, 601.12.2d:

d. Except as described in 12.1.2a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to FFL licensed curio and relic collectors in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a..

Handguns are verboten, rifles are OK.

Scott

 

[OldDominion]

12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h.

12.1.1h Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

While I don't speak ".gov" and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, it appears to me that the only short guns a C&R can mail to another C&R are pre-1898 smoke wagons. Right or wrong?

 

[mcnee229]

That is my understanding.

Scott

 

[DWalt]

Actually pre-1899.

 

[OldDominion]

I have found there are three options to this problem:
1) UPS and hope it doesn't disappear en-route.
2) Fed-Ex 2nd Day which is pricey but usually is secure.
3) Find a friendly FFL, swear fealty and kiss their ring, and maybe they will ship your guns via USPS on their license for a nominal fee.
I went with number three and it has worked out pretty good, and still less than #2.
Post script: I should add ( for my friends at NSA) that I transfer them to my FFL so they are legally his to ship.

 

[03clyde]

........
I went with number three and it has worked out pretty good.............

As a C&R holder, I agree.

 

[H Richard]

I had seen one time that there were some C&R FFL's working on the Federal Govt. to recognize the C&R as an FFL for mailing purposes. I am assuming that has not yet been successful.

 

[hotrod150]

I've seen a lot of references to C&R licenses, what is the definition of a C&R firearm and what is the advantage to having the C&R license? Sounds like a C&R licensee can't ship handguns, although maybe he can receive them.

 

[mcnee229]

A C&R is a Curio and Relic, a license for collectors that allows us to ship and have shipped directly to us certain firearms that have been deemed by the BATFE as either a curio or a relic.

https://batfe.prod.acquia-sites.com/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

If one is collecting something like K98 Mausers or Mosin-Nagants or similar, it lets you cut out the FFL transfer fee, because you yourself are an FFL (FFL 03).

Scott

 

[OldDominion]

I've seen a lot of references to C&R licenses, what is the definition of a C&R firearm and what is the advantage to having the C&R license? Sounds like a C&R licensee can't ship handguns, although maybe he can receive them.

For many years, the advantage of a C&R 03 license was you could buy and receive the guns that ATF had ruled were Curio and Relic. This included WWII military guns and earlier (including full auto) and certain modern guns that ATF had ruled were "curios and relics". The fa guns (Thompson, 1919, MG42, Ma Duece, etc.) still required the $200 tax stamp and paperwork, but you could take delivery without a Class3 dealer transfer. The rest were published in a book-manual printed by the ATF and frankly, it was a pain in the tookus. Recently, ATF ruled that any gun 50 years old and older qualified as a "C&R." So now any S&W made before 1964 is a C&R and can be shipped directly to your door without going thru an FFL.

 

[2152hq]

The 03C&R doesn't let you ship handguns thru the USPO like an 01FFL can.
It's because of simple wording on the 1508 Form.
http://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf

That form is required when shipping a handgun and right on the top of the form it says:
"This form can only be used by manufacturers or dealers of firearms."

"Firearms" in this case is handgun. The 1508 Form is demanded by regs re: shipment of handguns.


If they would make a simple change in the language in their Mailability Regs (601.11) and allow 03FFLs by adding ' licensed curio & relic collectors,,' to the 'manufacturer or dealer' all would be well in gunville.
Not going to happen in todays climate though,,just a feeling I have.

Or maybe they don't need any more business right now. They're doin' fine.

 

[deadin]

I've received several shipments via USPS from other's. They use a local FFL 01 to send to my C&R address. No problems.

This is only legal for long guns. If you have received a handgun via USPS on your FFL03, laws have been broken.....

 

[Nframecollector]

I just took delivery of a Yugo M57 at my local post office in Shiner, TX. Ordered from Classic Firearms and that's their preffered method of shipping.

 

[cgt4570]

If you have received a handgun via USPS on your FFL03, laws have been broken.....

In this case, you would have violated a postal regulation, not a BATFE federal law.

 

[OldDominion]

I think (I hope) what 1911 was saying is what I do also. When I want to ship a short gun via USPS, whether C&R or not, I transfer it to my local 01 FFl. It is now on his book and he can ship it. If I use Fed-Ex 2nd Day it runs $50 and up. USPS flat rate Priority and insurance usually between $25 and $30.

 

[DWalt]

I have known of some instances in which a handgun has been mailed through USPS without saying what's in the box to the USPS clerk. That's OK so long as you do not get caught during some postal inspection.

 

[OldDominion]

I have known of some instances in which a handgun has been mailed through USPS without saying what's in the box to the USPS clerk. That's OK so long as you do not get caught during some postal inspection.

My "outlaw" days are far behind me. I'm too old and too slow to think about that stuff anymore.

 

[robertwhite]

In this case, you would have violated a postal regulation, not a BATFE federal law.

I have had my 03 C&R for many years and never used it to ship a handgun via USPS. Several months ago, I read, and re-read the "newest" USPS regulations and found them ambiguous at best. In one section it mentions C&R and sounds like it is OK as they refer to BATFE regulations as the basis for their regulations. Yet in another paragraph, they mention the 1899 clause.

So.............. I called and spoke at length with a BATFE agent who was familiar with what a C&R actually was

We looked over the regulations, both theirs and USPS. Discussed both sides, discussed both ambiguous paragraphs and came to the following conclusion.................... If you use USPS to ship or receive a C&R eligible handgun, you will NOT be breaking any federal laws and they will have no cause to charge you. BUT, if an inspector at USPS happens to become aware of the package (scan, opened, etc), you can be subject to USPS investigation and charges. What those charges (if any) would be, we had no idea, because technically, the USPS is a privately run business with .Gov oversight.

Confused yet? Good, so were we.

We both agreed that the USPS is contradictory to itself and depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer.

Finished up the conversation with........... Probably best to use an 01 FFL to transfer thru for the extra $15. Paying $15 for a transfer sure as heck beats out trying to fight whatever made up ridiculous charge a USPS investigator can come up with. Personally, I have a great local FFL and have sent and received numerous firearms using them as a go between. Makes life much simpler.