C&R Inspection

TM- ATF agent has no legal right to demand to see any guns on a C&R inspection, only the log book. They also cannot demand to come to your home. You can bring your book to their office.

Funny how I have never heard of any C&R inspections and now several are reported... just 5 months after Comrades Obama and Holder take over. Think maybe word has come down from Olympus (home of the gods, you know) where Obama resides that ATF is to start checking everyone more often looking for excuses to persecute?
 
Saxon,
The ATF guy called me last September to schedule the inspection but due to scheduling conflicts we couldn't meet up until a couple of months ago. Not saying you are not correct in them being told to do more inspections now though.
I didn't argue with the guy on the fact that he had to come to my place. If I already had my CA license and he tried to pull that crap I would have called him on it. My license was still from NC and our meeting was the only thing holding the CA copy up. In fact, I still don't have my CA copy but he said the NC one is still valid until it expires in Oct. I need to call them and find out when they are going to ship the CA version.

Bill
 
I log in all C&R's, either purchased with my license or without. No black coptors flying over my house. I'm not messing with the Feds, you do what you will.
When I first got my 03', the ATF agent came to my home for a pleasant chat(and it was,he lived in my area), to explain the rules and make sure I understood them. We sat at the kitchen table, he never went anywhere else but to the front door. I have since had 2 renewals,the last just a month ago, with zero issues.
Bigger things to sweat in life. On a scale of 1-10, my visit was a 1.
 
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I figure that by logging all C&Rs, I'm safe for an audit. Those of you that only log those that you "use" your license for, may be OK, but, then again, maybe not.

BTW, I wear suspenders AND a belt.:D
 
I figure that by logging all C&Rs, I'm safe for an audit. Those of you that only log those that you "use" your license for, may be OK, but, then again, maybe not.

BTW, I wear suspenders AND a belt.:D

Not only do I agree, I took the unnecessary step of recording my previously owned C&Rs.

When I received my C&R, I recorded every firearm that was then C&R in my book. I labeled each page with "Firearms Owned Prior to Receipt of License".

If I ever sell one of them, the disposition will be a snap to enter.

I like to have the answers before the questions are asked.
 
Saxon Pig, not trying to be combative, but what part of each licensed collector "shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics" do you not understand ? I have had a Type 03 C&R License now for just over 20 years. I also live in California, where most dealers do not accept a Type 03 license. When I buy any firearm, handgun or long gun that falls under the category of a C&R I log it in, regardless of whether or not presenting my license had any part in the transaction. On the rare occasions that I sell a C&R firearm, if for example it was acquired before I had the license, it is logged in to the bound book, and then logged out to the buyer. It's simple, it follows the rule, and there is no disadvantage or risks that I can see by in doing so. If you were audited by someone who decided to make an issue out of your seemingly honest mistake you'd sure wish you had erred on the side of caution. Yes, I understand that a lot of the regulations seem open to interpretation but that isn't one of them.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't agree. I do not at all see the same thing you do in reading that regulation. No wiggle room? HA!!! There's TONS of it in that sentence. It seems just common sense that the regulation refers to guns acquired by using the license. Like I said before, FFLs are allowed to have guns off the book, why not C&R holders? The ATF is ONLY legally interested in tracking guns bought via the license. That's MY interpretation. You do what makes you feel comfortable, but I only log those guns I purchased using the C&R license. Again, like I said before, if the ATF doesn't like it they can take back the license.


Actually, the BATF can get a warrant and come into your house if they have reasonable evidence you are in violation of the C&R regulations. Your post is admission of violation of the C&R regulations. Worst case, they might seize all of your guns. If I were not following the rules, the last thing I would do is post it on the internet.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm

§ 178.23 Right of entry and examination. (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

1.) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and
2.) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.
 
I elect to interpret the regs that I need to log any C&R items in my book regardless of when I acquired them. If I owned them prior to the time I got my 03, the I log at the time I sell, with a statement "Owned prior to having C&R license". If I do not sell any of the prior owned guns, then I do not log them.

I agree, there is the question of interpretation, but this is how I interpret the regs.
 
"shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics":

My thoughts and understanding of a C&R License:

"Receipt" does not say purchase or when/how you came into possession of the C&R.
For me (note, for me) , it is any/all guns I have in my possession that qualify as C&R. Technically, I believe you only have to enter guns acquired under your C&R. However, disposition entries are required for any C&R you are getting rid of whether acquired with your license or not. That is the only way ATF can track possession, if need be.

"Disposition" is not the same as "logged out" in your book. Disposition is getting rid of (disposing) any C&R in your possession no matter when/how you acquired it. Again, it is a way of ATF being able to track. "Logged out" implies it was "logged in" using your C&R. Not necessarily so when you are disposing of any C&R you may have owned prior.

An aside concerning the comment about 01 FFL not having to "log" their personal collection under their FFL. An 01 FFL is for the purpose of doing business as a living not as a hobby of collecting guns. That is why we have two different licenses, one for dealers making a living selling guns and one for us collectors as an interest or hobby. That is why we are required to keep our personal collections in a book and an 01 FFL is not. An 01 FFL usually is not in the business of selling his personal guns, i.e., no need for a license. Just like any private citizen selling his personal guns.

My opinions and thoughts only but they work for me (and I believe the ATF. also).
 
This from a Q&A in a 2006 FFL Newsletter. it addresses personally owned firearms aquired before obtaining an FFL. The last sentance or two notes that they have to be logged in and then out when you decide to sell. This is refering to an 01FFL, but I believe it is the same for an 03C&R.


?Does it make a difference if the firearm
was obtained before the dealer obtained
his or her license and the dealer has no
intention of selling the firearm?
>
There is no obligation to record the
acquisition of personal firearms that the
dealer obtained prior to receiving his or her
license, as long as he or she does not intend
to sell such firearms. For example, an
individual proprietor may deal in firearms
from his or her licensed premises; he or she
may also possess in his or her home a
personal hunting weapon that he or she
purchased long before becoming a dealer,
and which he or she has no intention to sell.
Under those circumstances, the dealer was
not required to record the acquisition of the
personal firearm when he or she
commenced his or her firearms business.
Please note, however, that such firearms
must be kept segregated from the dealer’s
business inventory of firearms. A
presumption exists that all firearms on a
dealer’s business premises are for sale and
accordingly must be entered in the dealer’s
required records. If a dealer wishes to keep
personal firearms on his or her premises
that are not intended for sale and were
obtained prior to the date he or she
received his or her license, he or she should
segregate them from firearms held for sale
and appropriately identify or tag these
firearms as being “not for sale.” Finally, if the
dealer subsequently decides to sell any of
these firearms on his or her premises, he or
she must first enter them in his or her
acquisition and disposition book.
 
C&R Log Book Entries

What I don't understand is if an inspector just looks at your book and not the weapons on hand, what is he looking for ? Neatness ? If you produce a book with 15 entries, 5 of which indicate having been disposed of and logged as such, how would the inspector know if these entries are fact or fiction ?? He has no record of guns you have purchased and sold. Some have indicated that they only log guns purchased with there C&R, others do not log guns owned prior to obtaining a C&R. If they are not logged how would an inspector know you even had these guns ?? Just curious.
 
The concept is called "trust", an FFL holder could create a fictional log book, and given the cursory nature of a routine inspection, the false information might even "fool" the ATF Agent.

On the other hand, if the Agent finds you have created a fictional book, your next residence may be Federal Prison.

As stated before, don't bother getting any FFL if following the rules to the letter of the law is going to be a problem.
 
C&R Log Book

The concept is called "trust", an FFL holder could create a fictional log book, and given the cursory nature of a routine inspection, the false information might even "fool" the ATF Agent.

On the other hand, if the Agent finds you have created a fictional book, your next residence may be Federal Prison.

As stated before, don't bother getting any FFL if following the rules to the letter of the law is going to be a problem.


Don't get me wrong. I have a C&R FFL and keep my log book as required by law. I keep it in three sections, First, Purchase and dispositions since I got my license. Second, C&R weapons I owned prior to getting my license and third, Non C&R weapons. While I know non C&R weapons do not have to be in the book, I put them in the back for my own information. If an inspector had a problem with that I could just remove that section.
All I am saying is, without a more thorough investigation how does the inspector know my book is accurate. I would have thought the inspector would have at least spot checked some of the names and address of those I have alledged to have sold to or purchased from. Maybe ask to see the C&R weapons I have. As we all know, not everyone is trustworthy.
 
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