doublesharp
Member
Comes in handy at out of state gun shows, too.
-
Forum Update: We've upgraded the software to improve security, performance, and the overall experience.
👉 Read why we made the change | Support the Forum
C&R License
- Thread starter jimmyj
- Start date
Protocall_Design
Vendor
deadin
US Veteran
Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail > 4 Restricted Matter > 43 Firearms > 432 Mailability
Bladeswitcher
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2007
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 751
I'm not sure the regulations say what you think they say. They say that handguns are not mailable BETWEEN collectors. That means a collector can't MAIL a handgun. It doesn't necessarily mean a collector can't RECEIVE a handgun that is mailed by a Type 01 FFL Dealer. The ATF clearly says that a Type 03 FFL can receive firearms in interstate commerce. If they didn't mean for that to include handguns, they would have said so.
ETA: Postal regs relate to what can be MAILED, not to what can be received. The recipient is not mailing anything.
From a practical perspective, handguns are shipped to C&R holders every day, all across the county.
Last edited:
deadin
US Veteran
Did you read sections 432.21, 432.22 and 432.24?
A 03 FFL holder may receive a C&R handgun (or long gun) direct to their home via USPO, but may not send a C&R firearm using that 03FFL. It is a Postal Regulation that only an 01 FFL may ship through the USPO.
A 03 FFL holder may ship a handgun (or long gun) via UPS or FedEx according to their regulations.
The 03 FFL is very handy when you are out of state and find something to buy. It has helped me acquire some very nice pieces over the years. I won't be without it.
A 03 FFL holder may ship a handgun (or long gun) via UPS or FedEx according to their regulations.
The 03 FFL is very handy when you are out of state and find something to buy. It has helped me acquire some very nice pieces over the years. I won't be without it.
Last edited:
deadin
US Veteran
How does the sender satisfy the requirement (as underlined) on the PS Form 1508?
Note the lack of mention of a C&R licensee........
Also wouldn't a licensed dealer, manufacturer or importer have already included their license number when ordering the handgun (just like a FFL03 would have to)
I have bought several C&R revolvers since I got mine license about a year ago. All were shipped by USPS all to my address. I have not sold or shipped any. It's absolutely worth the $30. I put it off for several years, as I thought it would be a real hassle to get the license. After I filled out the paperwork and sent my $30 check I had my C&R license 3 weeks later to the day. The FFL fees alone make it worth it. It also very handy if your are out of state and see some thing you just have to have. Like a SWCA Symposium.
USPO use for shipping a handgun is betw Dealers and Manufactures only.
To ship a handgun USPO Form 1508 must be presented and signed by the shipper.
On the form is clearly states:
The undersigned is a manufacturer of firearms or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing
herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts.
In addition. It then clearly states the following:
...To the best of my
knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein.
So the shipper is signing the Form stating he/she is a bonifide Dealer or Manufacturer AND is also stating to the best of his/her knowledge, that all the addresses on the form (where the packages are being shipped to) are that of Dealers or Manufacturers.
This form is used when shipping Handguns only with the USPO.
USPO never had any reference to C&R in their regs at all. Then in the last few years a few details were entered.
But they do little to define or loosen restrictions for C&R holders to use the USPO for shipment of handguns.
If anything the newer entrys only confused the situation.
All that said, More than a few handguns have been shipped thru the USPO to non-Dealers, some not by Dealers, ect.
Some ship socket wrench sets and look the other way and hope.
Some use the 1508 Form and sign it anyway knowing the address it's going to isn't a Dealer.
That's up to them
https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf
USPO is supposed to keep a copy of this form for 1 yr.
I always kept a copy and gave the orig to the USPO clerk afterI had them timestamp both.
I saw them throw their's away on more than one occasion as I walked away.
C&R license can be a good thing. It does save you the 4473 & NICS check at point of purchase. That as long as you are buying from an FFL that doesn't spazz out when seeing an 03FFL. Some won't sell to an 03. They either don't understand them (they've only been around for 50yrs) or like has been said,,they don't consider them part of the clan.
Anything 50yrs old and older on the day of purchase. that's the Relic part of the designation
Some guns are easy to date, some not. So some purchases may be denied if exact dates are too close to call betw a Modern gun and a C&R.
Curio status can be any age. The Curio classification comes in when the gun is historically significant, or an oddity, rare, ect.
Could be something made 5 yrs ago. These are the items most often added to the C&R List that the BATF republishes every year or so.
Some are individual guns and by ser#. Some are small groups of some models and may be falling within a certain ser# range, or a caliber,,things like that.
Sometimes whole Models of a certain gun are classed as Curio.
The Colt SAA (mfg by Colt and having the orig lockwork) are Curio & Relic firearms. Even those 4th Generation ColtSAA's.
The smaller 22cal Scout SAA do NOT fall under that however.
Winchester Model 21 shotguns are all C&R if they were mfg by the Winchester R/A Co.
Any Model 21 mfg'd after US Repeating Arms Co took over in the 80's is NOT a C&R shotgun.
Some formerly NFA firearms can get reclassified as Title I firearms and placed in the C&R classification due to rarity.
The 'Trapper' MArlin and Winchester leveraction rifles with bbl's l;ess than 16" lengths fall into that catagory.
A factory letter to prove originality is the usual route for the Winchesters as records do exist for most. FAiling that, a hands on examination by BATF is the only other way and is used for most all MArlins as the records are spotty at best.
You can try and get one passed them, but if your handy work fails their tests, you won't get your home-made Trapper back!
If the gun is deemed orig, the gun is BATF Documented & Lettered, and it will be placed in the C&R listing by description and ser#.
State laws still apply.
Pretty simple to keep a bound book for a C&R. Gun IN,,Gun OUT.
You are not a Dealer so no NICS access. No 4473 to do. You can buy & sell to other FFL's by exchange of licenses.
Sales to another non-licensee is just as if you never had an FFL.
To ship a handgun USPO Form 1508 must be presented and signed by the shipper.
On the form is clearly states:
The undersigned is a manufacturer of firearms or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing
herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts.
In addition. It then clearly states the following:
...To the best of my
knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein.
So the shipper is signing the Form stating he/she is a bonifide Dealer or Manufacturer AND is also stating to the best of his/her knowledge, that all the addresses on the form (where the packages are being shipped to) are that of Dealers or Manufacturers.
This form is used when shipping Handguns only with the USPO.
USPO never had any reference to C&R in their regs at all. Then in the last few years a few details were entered.
But they do little to define or loosen restrictions for C&R holders to use the USPO for shipment of handguns.
If anything the newer entrys only confused the situation.
All that said, More than a few handguns have been shipped thru the USPO to non-Dealers, some not by Dealers, ect.
Some ship socket wrench sets and look the other way and hope.
Some use the 1508 Form and sign it anyway knowing the address it's going to isn't a Dealer.
That's up to them
https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf
USPO is supposed to keep a copy of this form for 1 yr.
I always kept a copy and gave the orig to the USPO clerk afterI had them timestamp both.
I saw them throw their's away on more than one occasion as I walked away.
C&R license can be a good thing. It does save you the 4473 & NICS check at point of purchase. That as long as you are buying from an FFL that doesn't spazz out when seeing an 03FFL. Some won't sell to an 03. They either don't understand them (they've only been around for 50yrs) or like has been said,,they don't consider them part of the clan.
Anything 50yrs old and older on the day of purchase. that's the Relic part of the designation
Some guns are easy to date, some not. So some purchases may be denied if exact dates are too close to call betw a Modern gun and a C&R.
Curio status can be any age. The Curio classification comes in when the gun is historically significant, or an oddity, rare, ect.
Could be something made 5 yrs ago. These are the items most often added to the C&R List that the BATF republishes every year or so.
Some are individual guns and by ser#. Some are small groups of some models and may be falling within a certain ser# range, or a caliber,,things like that.
Sometimes whole Models of a certain gun are classed as Curio.
The Colt SAA (mfg by Colt and having the orig lockwork) are Curio & Relic firearms. Even those 4th Generation ColtSAA's.
The smaller 22cal Scout SAA do NOT fall under that however.
Winchester Model 21 shotguns are all C&R if they were mfg by the Winchester R/A Co.
Any Model 21 mfg'd after US Repeating Arms Co took over in the 80's is NOT a C&R shotgun.
Some formerly NFA firearms can get reclassified as Title I firearms and placed in the C&R classification due to rarity.
The 'Trapper' MArlin and Winchester leveraction rifles with bbl's l;ess than 16" lengths fall into that catagory.
A factory letter to prove originality is the usual route for the Winchesters as records do exist for most. FAiling that, a hands on examination by BATF is the only other way and is used for most all MArlins as the records are spotty at best.
You can try and get one passed them, but if your handy work fails their tests, you won't get your home-made Trapper back!
If the gun is deemed orig, the gun is BATF Documented & Lettered, and it will be placed in the C&R listing by description and ser#.
State laws still apply.
Pretty simple to keep a bound book for a C&R. Gun IN,,Gun OUT.
You are not a Dealer so no NICS access. No 4473 to do. You can buy & sell to other FFL's by exchange of licenses.
Sales to another non-licensee is just as if you never had an FFL.
Last edited:
Once you relinquish your C&R, what happens to the log book and the information inside it? Curious if the government is getting updated information on private sales they would normally not have access to, which is kind of clever IMO.
Just had a Colt Cobra come USPS Priority today... shipped from a FFL-01.
For the license, I’m glad I got it. Originally received it in NJ, then transferred it over when I moved to ME. It was nice in NJ, since I could get pistols in PA at the Oaks gun show without headaches. One of the first purchases on it once I moved up here was a M1 Carbine... as a [emoji867] to NJ.
For the license, I’m glad I got it. Originally received it in NJ, then transferred it over when I moved to ME. It was nice in NJ, since I could get pistols in PA at the Oaks gun show without headaches. One of the first purchases on it once I moved up here was a M1 Carbine... as a [emoji867] to NJ.
Bladeswitcher
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2007
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 751
You can line the bird cage with them for all the ATF cares . . .
Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition and disposition records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Bladeswitcher
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2007
- Messages
- 298
- Reaction score
- 751
Truthfully, as long as the ATF is happy, the FFL is happy. Everything else is relatively unimportant.
deadin
US Veteran
My concern is "Is the ATF really happy, or just ignoring this activity?"
At least until they decide to make an example of someone.
The onus should fall on the sender, but there is always the chance that the handgun involved could end up as contraband and be confiscated....
I don't want any part of it.
Last edited:
jag312
Member
For me it is even simpler. Gun IN, and it ain't never going out. At least not in my lifetime. I buy what I want, and I never have any idea of ever selling it. That's why I need to buy another safe.
my son and I have an LLC that we use for real estate and other investments. can the FFL 03 be in the name of the LLC, using the LLC address, even though he and I live in different states?
