calling all fighter pilots...

bennettfam

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Here's something I've wondered for a while and hope you guys can answer: Why, when the US had the 1911 and other autos to choose from, did you usually see pilots (at least in WWII thru Vietnam) carrying revolvers? Practical reason or personal preference?
 
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Practical. The time a pilot needs a gun is also the time he likely is injured. Load a revolver with one hand (as in broken arm); now try it with a 1911 or any other autoloader. Rack the slide with one hand - yes, there is a trick involving the rear sight and boot heel but that can be frustrating. A revolver is simple to deal with. Remember in that era that revolvers also were MUCH more reliable than autos.
 
Not a pilot - but, was a helicopter crewmember on CH47 Chinooks.

We were given a choice between the Colt 1911 or a S&W M10 4" for a sidearm. Most (not all) chose the S&W M10.

We were kids (I was 18) and having been brought up on a diet of Rawhide & Gunsmoke, the revolver most resembled those. Especially as the local Viet stores were happy to sell us the low-slung quickdraw rigs we wore.

Wearing the Nomex flight suit and packing a sidearm was a serious "cool factor" statement. I never wore jungle fatigues again except for when I had to pull perimeter/bunker guard - doorgunners were the only crewmembers not exempt from guard duty.

Bruce
 
US Army Avaitor (UH-1, C-12)

I carried a S&W Model 10 because that was what I was issued. Later it was the Beretta, again because it was my issue weapon.
 
Dad was a Skyraider pilot in Korea (Marine Corps). When he first got there he carried his personally owned Luger, since no one really cared what a pilot carried. Soon afterward, someone up the food chain decided pilots would carry issued handguns, so he was issued a Victory Model 38. Out of the pilots in VMA 121 while he was there, he says everyone carried 38's, with the exception of a former Marine infantry officer who had become a pilot, he carried a Government Model 1911.
The ammo they carried was mostly tracer, which was to be used to mark your location in the event you had to ditch your plane.
This was taken in 1953 Korea (K6 airbase) Dad is wearing his Victory Model crossdraw. The holster is actually designed to be a shoulder rig, but Dad says it was a PITA with all the crap he had to wear strapped in, so he and most of the pilots carried it as you see here
1zdq0ys.jpg
 
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venomballistics: that only counts if you strapped on a handgun while you were flying. I'll bet you never bailed out over Europe or Korea either did you?
 
For the jet jockeys the possibility of ejection could have been WHY they were not given the relatively heavy 1911 auto? Could be why the lightweight Aircrewman revolvers came to be?

FN in MT
 
venomballistics: that only counts if you strapped on a handgun while you were flying. I'll bet you never bailed out over Europe or Korea either did you?

well the 629 has been with me a few times flying over bear held territory and retrieval of a P-38 Lightning which crashed in turf strongly held by domesticated geese nearly made me a casualty :D
then there are the occasional dogfight engagements with hawks and eagles of various outcome.
Most warbirds fair well. other craft of milder temper ... well ... ya cant learn what it takes to win if you dont lose:D
 
We (in the 80's) carried what was issued. And they wouldn't get them out unless they thought we needed them, and that was never. So I had a room mate that carried a 1911, but it was completely on the sly. He had it in his Gsuit pocket.

Munster
 
Not a pilot, don't even play one; but my son is and does. I pulled security at TOC, Ubon, Thailand (8 TFW, F-4s in the time of Robin Olds). Pilots came through my post en route to and back from missions constantly. The vast majority carried the issue Model 15s in the USAF hip swivel rig on a pistol belt. A couple carried personally owned pistols which was unusual; I recall a BHP and a 1911. Even then I was into handguns, and we discussed it a bit. I helped the 1911 guy to get some WWII era tracers for the .45s for signalling. As far as I know he never needed them.

I concur that the revolver was preferred because it was a one-hand only operation. However most accounts I read of pilots bailing out mentioned that they made it a point to lose the handgun on the way down if they thought capture was imminent. The locals were rough enough on them as it was without the suggestion of resistance, which was a losing proposition. So there are probably a few very rusty M15s in the mud of Vietnam--North and South--today.

I still have a bunch of negative proof strips from those days, not all of which ever got printed. A window into the past.
 
I have an interest in this and have followed the matter insofar as possible.

In WW II, some units were ordered not to carry pistols or big knives, lest they frighten civilians who might otherwise help a downed Allied pilot in Nazi-occupied country. This seems to have changed after D-Day, as the pilot might find his way back more readily to Allied troops. Some probably carried all along.

When Chuck Yeager was shot down and found his way across the Pyrenees into Spain, he had a .45 auto. I don't know if it was his or issued. His book didn't say.

Pilot in Asia seem to have been always armed, usually with .45 autos, or whatever they'd brought. Some photos show Flying Tigers with .38's, a Colt Official Police, in one good image. Those were privately owned. If you read, "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo", Ted Lawson detailed his and his B-25 crew's sidearms: a mix of pistols, issued and private. He had his service .45 and his wife's Colt .32 auto. Many knives, but none named by make or model. I don't think he or his crew ever shot at anyone after crashing, but one gunner asked if he should fire on some Orientals approaching. They turned out to be Chinese, not Japs, and no shots were fired.

Korean arms were about what was used in WW II: .45's for USAF (plus what they owned, in some units, if not all. Navy and USMC still had Victory Models and a sprinkling of similar Colt .38's.

By the time the B-52 was in use, the Aircrewman .38's were adopted. It was thought that a very light gun was less likely to be ripped off the body as a pilot ejected. But I think they also liked the hi-tech image.

By the Viet war, the S&W M-15 was USAF standard, and both snubs and four-inch barrels were used. Some pilots supplied their own weapons, as unit shortages required it. I recall one pilot mentioning that in an account of his days in Vietnam.

Navy aircrew often used what they wanted. I think that author Stephen Coonts (A-6 Intruder pilot) had an S&W M-19 .357. A Navy helo crewman had a P-38, and mentioned it in his book on Walther's famous model. (Gene Gangarosa.) I personally saw Naval aircrew with Victory Model .38's in the 1960's. They were rumored to have S&W M-39 9mm's on some aircraft carriers.

A Naval pilot named Dieter Dengler hid his pistol on landing, but I forget if he named the sort. I recall thinking when I read his story that this seemed a defeatist thing to do. Many pilots are handgun-shy and never really get much training in what the pistol can do in the right hands.

When Scott O'Grady's F-16 went down over Bosnia, he complained that his Beretta M-9 was hard to keep free of rust. He also groused when his rescuers took the gun before they allowed him aboard the helo. I don't blame him! I hope that the gun was returned once they reached the aircraft carrier and his ID was confirmed.

I understand that some USAF units have bought Glock 19's with unit funds, but the M-9 is probably the most likely sidearm. I think Navy and Marine pilots get the SIG P-228 issued as the M-11. It is also issued to military investigators.

One thing it might be wise to avoid in a future war is carrying what the enemy does. A quite famous RAF pilot bummed a Luger from an intelligence officer, who had a cache of guns taken off of Luftwaffe personnel whose planes had crashed in Britain. I guess he felt it hit harder than the issue .38,which it does. Or, maybe he liked the "cool" factor.

All went well until his Mosquito was ambushed by a pair of FW-190's over Denmark and he and his navigator were shot down. The German troops who took his gun didn't look too happy about it, but didn't harm him.

Another very famous RAF officer carried a .32 Beretta. Don't know how he got it. Probably the same way that other fellow got the Luger. It was a pretty good choice, as it used ammo that could be found in Europe, and was small enough to conceal.

Because many US pilots wore shoulder holsters, it's hard to tell if they were armed. I'd like to see more photos showing the guns. RAF pilots often wore gray webbing belt holsters, and one can easily see the guns on them.

On Gunboards, someone posted a photo of a Webley WG .455 carried by famed Spitfire pilot Adolph "Sailor" Malan. He was South African, and the gun had been in his family since the Boer War. I guess he wore it for tradition or family pride. He may have just owned it. I'm not sure if it was the gun with him in his cockpit.

WW II Luftwaffe fighter pilots seem to have greatly preferred the Walther PP, as it was less bulky in their tight cockpits than the P-08 or P-38 holsters. I would be amazed if other .32's weren't used, some being private property. Hans Rudel, the Stuka pilot who was presented the Knight's Cross in gold, with swords and diamonds, wore a .25, but he didn't say which brand or model in his book.

I think that the top scoring ace of all time (352 kills!) carried a Walther .32. He was Erich Hartmann, and he refused to disarm when he went to receive the Knight's Cross or the swords or diamonds; I forget which. Those approaching Hitler were required to leave their pistols in an anteroom, but he said that he'd rather leave without the high award than take off his gun. Hitler was told, and allowed him to wear it. As one of Germany's greatest heroes, he had some "pull" that most wouldn't!

German bomber crews, especially enlisted men, usually carried the Luger. I don't think the Luftwaffe ever issued the P-38, by order of Goering, who preferred the older design. He had a financial interest in Kreighoff, who made Lugers, and was a gun enthusiast. If someone knows of Luftwaffe issue of P-38's, please speak up and cite your source. I'd be very interested. I think that panzergrenadier and paratroop units came under Luftwaffe control, for political reasons, and they may well have gotten P-38's.

That's about all that I know on the matter. Oh: the Italian Air Force and Navy used Beretta .32s, not the .380 issued by their Army. (Same basic pistol, but called the M-35, not M-34.)

The SIG- P-228 is probably as good a pilot's sidearm as I can think of, although it's kind of thick for concealed carry, if civilian clothes can be obtained after landing in enemy territory.

Under present conditions, I'd like to see the S&W M-66 again made and issued to aircrew. It is very versatile, and JHP ammo could be issued, as we are not now at war with a recognized nation. Full .357 ammo could be used for hunting and defense against animals. And many pilots prefer a revolver. (The reason has been discussed in this topic.)

It is likely that some pilots have had Ruger Speed -Six .38's, which have been issued to Army aircrew, as well as the S&W M-10. I think the Navy got some of both.

If someone knows more, please chime in! I'm especially interested in seeing WW II pilots' guns.

T-Star
P.S. I know the question pertained to fighter pilots' guns, but has everyone here heard about the B-17 waist gunner who shot down an ME-109 with a S&W .38? His .50 cal. was out of action and he drew the .38, which may have been a privately owned one. One of his bullets evidently got through the prop and killed the enemy pilot! It must have been the luckiest shot in history! :eek:
 
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This is a picture taken in Vietnam, probably in 1963. The tall guy with his back to camera is the pilot, my high school buddy Army 1/LT Ed Cribb, who was later killed when his plane was shot down. Here, his twin-engine Mohawk had blown a tire and veered off the runway. If you look closely, he is carrying a shoulder rig with ammo in loops appearing to be .38 caliber. The gun itself is more than probably a Victory Model.

EDDIEMohawkWithBlownTireMinaschek.jpg
 
In the Cold War in 1957 I was in an ADC outfit in F89's.We were issued S&W snubs but I packed a Colt 2nd Gen SAA 45 in a Lawrence shoulder rig.My Flight Commander then showed up in an honest to goodness 38-40 nickled 1st gen SAA in a genuine old coyboy rig he got from an old relative.BHP and occasional 1911 personals were also seen.We were in the NW US and I liked the idea of 45 for bears if we went down in the mountains.
 
Not a fighter pilot, but just a chopper driver in 1968-69. I carried a S&W model 10 because I could shoot it better than a 1911 at the time and the model 10 came to me new in a factory box. The 1911's that were available for issue were pretty well-used. Luckily, I never had to fire my sidearm in anger.

I do know two 1911 worshipers who have now lived to be old men. My army aviator buddy got pinned down by a VC in a spider hole with a rifle and my buddy had a 1911. He was able to suppress the enemy fire long enough to get rescued. He said it saved his bacon. He also had a lot of trigger time before the army with the .45 auto, and that's why he chose to carry the 1911 over the revolver. Another friend, an infantryman, who had just been tunnel ratting with a 1911 in his hand, had an NVA soldier walk around the tree my buddy was resting under. Fortunately when they surprised one another, my buddy reacted quicker. His one shot with his 1911 hit the enemy soldier in the head...end of story.
 
We (in the 80's) carried what was issued. And they wouldn't get them out unless they thought we needed them, and that was never. So I had a room mate that carried a 1911, but it was completely on the sly. He had it in his Gsuit pocket.

Munster

I flew fighters in the USAF (F16's in Europe) in the mid 80's and it was the same situation. We only carried sitting alert and during exercises or during a few other times they (someone of a higher rank than me) decided we might need them (like flying over remote parts of Turkey where they had some mean spirited wild dogs roaming the range).

I couldn't tell you what model revolver they were as I wasn't into them at the time other than I remember it looked like it was picked up out of a trench from WWI. They were old, beat up and had a lanyard ring on the base of the grips if I recall correctly. The ammo they gave us with them looked even older. I would have been amazed if the corroded ball ammo issued would have even fired. Thank Goodness I never had to find out.
 
I was an Army Aviator (I flew OV-1s, actually JOV-1As). We were based in Ubon for a while and lived well off the USAF. Our arms room had a lot of M10s, a couple old Colt OPs, 1911s, and a few Detective Specials left over from when they were for MP/CID personnel. Most of the guys carried the revolver. Another reason why a revolver was better for aircrew was that they fired the little .38 cal flares that were issued, the flares made only a little pop when fired. I always carried a few extra flares, figured they might be useful. I transitioned to rotary wing in 67 and thereafter carried a long gun in addition to a .38. Initially I packed a Thompson M1928 I got off a AF guy in a poker game, but the damn thing was really heavy when a couple of drums were added to the load. Next I tried a shotgun, an issue Ithaca, but it had the 5 round magazine and I wanted more. Finally I settled on an M2 carbine, which with a few 30 round mags was both light enough and packed enough ammo. I saw a lot of different sidearms in early VN, but after 69 command started bitching about personally owned weapons.
An AF armorer at Ubon did an action job on my issue M10 that was the best I have ever fired, even to this day. I foolishly failed to "lose" it and turned it in like a good dooby.
I retired from the military before the M9 was issued, but my 5 kids are all military aviators and have packed one, they seem to like it, but they don't know any better. My only daughter flys a zoomy type plane(F18A) off a boat and she carries a S&W 940(and my old trench knife) in addition to the M9, she is quite determined to turn infantry if she has to punch out. Actually her brothers figure the best way to end just about any hostilities is to get her on a PMS day and drop her behind the lines. They may have a point, but I think that there is probably some international convention or other that prohibits that kind of combat as cruel and unusual-to the enemy.
 
My good friend was an F4 pilot in Vietnam and he carried a revolver. Not sure which one and he isn't a gun guy so he can't remember the model. He carried tracer ammo to shoot up through the tree canopy in case of being shot down.
 

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