calling all fighter pilots...

[safearm]

I flew B-52Hs, RF-4Cs, and every model of KC-135. While on SAC alert in B-52/KC-135, I carried a 2" M15. During Desert Shield, I deployed with a 4" M15 in a survival vest holster. After arriving in Saudi Arabia, I transitioned to the M9 carried in a shoulder holster. For the remainder of my flying career, I carried the M9 in a shoulder holster, worn over my survival vest.
In the RF-4C, there was a holster in the survival vest which could hold practically anything, although I never carried anything in it.

 

[Texas Star]

Great anecdotes guys. Keep it up. Texas Star: Great info, thanks.

You're very welcome. I've had fun researching it.

I can add that I recently got a book about Jap naval aces. It mentions that the Navy pilots usually didn't wear holsters, just shoved the 8mm Nambu (usually) in their belt. These were not the true Nambu, but the later model. The designation eludes me at the moment. I have seen pics of some with the 9mm Type 26 revolvers in leather holsters.

Their pistols weren't so much for defense or to hunt animals for food, as a Western pilot might do. They were basically for committing suicide if their plane went down behind Allied lines.

Don't know the situation with Japanese Army pilots, but it is
likely similar, except that holsters may have been more common.

A great many Jap pilots were enlisted men, and the book on the Navy aces made it clear that there was a strong caste system, with many officers on really bad terms with the enlisted men. I think the officers were more likely to have had holsters and carried pistols assigned to them personally. The others seem to have used random pistols from the carrier's arms room.

One famous ace (I think it was Saburo Sakai) actually pulled his pistol on an officer and demanded better conditions for the men, especially better food. He got his request.

I've also read that some Indian Air Force pilots carried US M-1917 .45's. Lend-Lease stuff not needed in Europe,I guess.

T-Star

 

[Trooperdan]

Texas Star, that last Nambu would have been the type 94. It would be a bad one to just tuck into a waist band as it has an exposed sear bar that would fire the gun if it was pressed!

 

[Texas Star]

Texas Star, that last Nambu would have been the type 94. It would be a bad one to just tuck into a waist band as it has an exposed sear bar that would fire the gun if it was pressed!

No, no. That wasn't even a Nambu, but I have seen pics of Jap pilots wearing it. The holster is distinctive. I presume they carried with an empty chamber, anyway.

The one that I mean was the one that replaced the Papa Nambu after 1925. Some had enlarged trigger guards, for use with gloves. I'm just drawing a blank on the name for now. Does Type 14 sound right?

LATER: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambu_pistol Wikipedia entry and photos. It is the Type/Model 14.


T-Star

 

[PALADIN85020]

No, no. That wasn't even a Nambu, but I have seen pics of Jap pilots wearing it. The holster is distinctive. I presume they carried with an empty chamber, anyway.

The one that I mean was the one that replaced the Papa Nambu after 1925. Some had enlarged trigger guards, for use with gloves. I'm just drawing a blank on the name for now. Does Type 14 sound right?

LATER: Nambu pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Wikipedia entry and photos. It is the Type/Model 14.


T-Star

Additional info on the Type 14 in an article I wrote not long ago. Go to page 40 in the Blue Press.

John

http://www.bridleandbit.net/ebooks/bluepress/bluepressjul10/jul10/object_files/main.swf

 

[Texas Star]

John-

Thanks. Some of your data is also iin the Wiki entry. Did you also write that?

I've seen some of these guns, and handled a few brought back by friends' fathers. Other than late war examples, they seemed pretty well made. Never shot one or saw one on a range, due to the ammo problem: there basically isn't any, save from very specialized sources.

They make a nice war trophy, but are not the optimum military gun, for sure. I think Nambu got some of his ideas from the Italian Glisenti pistol, or the reverse. I think the Glisenti came out several years after 1902, about 1910. Thus, it puzzles me that some writers have said that the Nambu was based on the Italian design.

T-Star

 

[Douglas Jr.]

T-Star,

Very nice post about aircrew and pilot's sidearms.
I own a .32 ACP Mauser Model 1914 that was captured from a Luftwaffe aircrew in Italy, back in 1944-45. At least it is what said the affidavit made by the veteran's association.

On the other hand you cannot forget the famous Hungarian FEMARU P.37 (also in .32 ACP): 85,000 pistols of such model were purchased by Luftwaffe in 1941 and 1943 to be issued to aircrews, usually paired with the cool "drop holsters". In addition, many FN Browning Model 1922 also served with German pilots.

The famous Walter Nowotny (258 air victories ace, holder of the Diamonds of the Knights' Cross) carried a Mauser, probably a HSc model (there is an account of him using his gun while in a raft to ask for rescue). Some other fighter guys carried the big ones: I remember to have seen a picture of Johannes Steinhoff (178 air victories, holder of the KC with Swords and later a Bundeswehr general) with a Walther P.38 holters while leaving the Me109 cockpit.

Below a picture of my FEMARU P.37 with a drop holster marked for Luftwaffe.

Nice topic and a lot of interesting information!
Douglas.

 

[PALADIN85020]

John-

Thanks. Some of your data is also iin the Wiki entry. Did you also write that?

T-Star

Nope, I had nothing to do with the Wiki bit on the Type 14. It contained some minor errors, but was generally informative.

John

 

[Texas Star]

Nope, I had nothing to do with the Wiki bit on the Type 14. It contained some minor errors, but was generally informative.

John

John-

I concur. I felt that it was unkind to the Type 14. Those that I've seen, other than very late examples, were well made. But the part about weak magazine springs may have been true even when the guns were new.

Douglas, Jr.-

Thanks! That holster looks pristine! I haven't seen that general style on any but postwar holsters for German police.

Can you post the photo of the pilot with the P-38, without copyright issues? Or, at least tell us if the P-38 holster was the hard type like the one for the P-08, or the breakaway later sort? It's quite possible that some Luftwaffe pilots preferred the greater power of the 9mm.

I've heard of all of the aces whom you named. How did the one with the HSc use it in the rescue mentioned? Surely, they didn't issue .32 flare ammo?! What can you add about his having a Mauser? Did he just mention a "Mauser" in his memoirs, or what?

The rescue part reminds me: All or most of the Colt M-1911 .455's left over from WW I were assigned to the RAF Air Rescue Service/ Coastal Command. (They had been RAF issue since the 1920's, anyway.) I'm sure that this was partly to get all of the .455 autos, which used a unique ammo, in one command. But the main reason why their flying boats had sidearms was that they also rescued German airmen down in the Channel. Had the crews not been armed, a German could draw his own pistol and commandeer the plane!

I think this was the only real use of the Colt .455's in WW II, although the Royal Navy used Webley .455 autos, as well as Webley .455 revolvers. I assume that at least some RN aircrewmen did use those guns.

The many Colt autos issued to Commando and SOE personnel were chambered in the usual .45ACP caliber. And they were buying them from 1940, well before the Lend-Lease Act.

I suspect that German aircrew carried pretty much what was available, including all of the various .32's issued in that era.
It would not amaze me to learn that many tried to get 9mm's in the North African theater. And some surely acquired Beretta .32's and .380s.

The Beretta M-34 was compact and at least as powerful as the British .38/200. I'm sure that the bullet penetrated better. The late David W. Arnold told me that he'd seen the metal-jacketed bullet from the latter fail to penetrate the British Army greatcoat in trials! (He carried a postwar P-38 when on anti-terrorist duty in Rhodesia. And he had considerable respect for the effectiveness of the 9mm in battle.)

If anyone can post photos of aircrew with sidearms, that'd be terrific, if no copyright issues arise. Most of those photos will be of uncertain copyright, anyway, and most were probably taken by military photographers. (Some by newsmen and "Life".)

There are well known ones of Dick Bong and his chief rival, Tom McGuire, wearing .45's in shoulder holsters, and Bong has his Randall knife in at least one of them. In, "War Pilot", Richard Kirkland mentioned his tentmate firing his .45 at bats or something, in New Guinea. I'd have to check the exact quote, but they obviously had .45 autos, plus whatever someone otherwise acquired. The guy may have just been cleaning it. (Jeff Cooper told me that he shot bats and traded them to natives for lobsters.)

War provided some odd examples. In the movie (yeah, I know: movies may not be authentic), "Never So Few", Steve McQueen's character had a Luger. I supposed when I first saw the movie as a high schooler that they used that because they couldn't get a Nambu 8mm. He supposedly got the gun from a dead Jap, I think.

Later, I found that the Japs re-issued many 9mm Lugers captured from the Dutch in the East Indies, now Indonesia. Some P-08's were probably private property of Dutch citizens there, too. So, although the movie maker likely didn't realize it, a Jap may well have been carrying a true Luger!

The movie, BTW, is one of the better WW II items, also starring Frank Sinatra, Peter Lawford, and other good actors. Some Italian actress played the female lead, who wound up with Sinatra's character, an OSS officer operating in Burma.
I think it was Gina Lollabridgeda (sp?)

This issue of airmens' pistols is a fascinating one, and one very hard to precisely define. Even with modern times and the US requirement that only official issue ones be worn, the matter remains cloudy. It does seem almost certain that Navy pilots have M-11's (SIG P-228's) and USAF has the M-9 Beretta...except sometimes!

T-Star

 

[bennettfam]

Sounds like one recurring theme is this: in the "old days" the pilots seemed to have more of a say or option in what they carried, but today it is the issue weapon only, if they get one at all. Probably not much tolerance for pilots "bending" the rules to carry a sidearm of their choosing, although I have heard stories of some ground troops doing just that. I don't know how they are getting their 1911s or .357s out there but some guys seem to have them.

 

[alienbogey]

I flew F-18's in the Gulf War and after.

When we got to the Gulf in Desert Shield we were issued 5 shot S&W snubnose popguns that we figured would be good for offing ourselves if we fired all five into our head, or perhaps if you pulled it on an Iraqi advancing to capture you it might cause him to die laughing.

Someone in the Air Wing had a connection with Ruger and most of the guys in his squadron ordered the then-new P85. Word got out and eventually most of the pilots in the Air Wing obtained and carried them. The CAG and ship's CO were okay with it and we kept them in our staterooms. Plenty of ball 9mm was available for practice and we fired them off the fantail between recoveries.

One Marine exchange pilot in a sister squadron carried an old government issued 1911 that he'd scared up from somewhere.

For my second cruise us veterans had our Rugers and the newbies got stuck with the popgun Smith's until our squadron gunner said he could get 1911's. He sent in the paperwork and in just a couple of weeks newly factory reconditioned 1911's arrived and those of us with the Ruger 9mm's were a trifle jealous of those carrying 45's.

Whether the Rugers or the 1911's would have stayed with us in an ejection was doubtful, one reason for the little Smith's was because they had a better chance of actually arriving with you on the ground.

 

[The Big D]

Your daughter is a fighter pilot? That is extremely impressive; you must be very, very proud.

Be safe.

I was an Army Aviator (I flew OV-1s, actually JOV-1As). We were based in Ubon for a while and lived well off the USAF. Our arms room had a lot of M10s, a couple old Colt OPs, 1911s, and a few Detective Specials left over from when they were for MP/CID personnel. Most of the guys carried the revolver. Another reason why a revolver was better for aircrew was that they fired the little .38 cal flares that were issued, the flares made only a little pop when fired. I always carried a few extra flares, figured they might be useful. I transitioned to rotary wing in 67 and thereafter carried a long gun in addition to a .38. Initially I packed a Thompson M1928 I got off a AF guy in a poker game, but the damn thing was really heavy when a couple of drums were added to the load. Next I tried a shotgun, an issue Ithaca, but it had the 5 round magazine and I wanted more. Finally I settled on an M2 carbine, which with a few 30 round mags was both light enough and packed enough ammo. I saw a lot of different sidearms in early VN, but after 69 command started bitching about personally owned weapons.
An AF armorer at Ubon did an action job on my issue M10 that was the best I have ever fired, even to this day. I foolishly failed to "lose" it and turned it in like a good dooby.
I retired from the military before the M9 was issued, but my 5 kids are all military aviators and have packed one, they seem to like it, but they don't know any better. My only daughter flys a zoomy type plane(F18A) off a boat and she carries a S&W 940(and my old trench knife) in addition to the M9, she is quite determined to turn infantry if she has to punch out. Actually her brothers figure the best way to end just about any hostilities is to get her on a PMS day and drop her behind the lines. They may have a point, but I think that there is probably some international convention or other that prohibits that kind of combat as cruel and unusual-to the enemy.

 

[Texas Star]

YouTube - "THE BRIDGES AT TOKO-RI" - After Hitting the Second Target

This may interest some. It's a YouTube clip from, The Bridges at Toko-Ri, based on James Michener's novel of the same name. Just found this later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nPdVJQaci0&feature=related

William Holden played Lt. Harry Brubaker, whose F9-F Panther was hit while bombing North Korean bridges. You can see his vest well. Note that his knife is a Western "shark knife" and that the CAG alongside him has a Marble's Ideal (I think). This probably reflected reality in pilots buying their own knives then. Brubaker was a Denver lawyer in civilian life, and Western was a Colorado company, so the knife matches something that he'd have probably bought. Holden was a hunter (famous for his safaris) and I wonder if the Western knife was his idea.

When Brubaker is asked in the clip whether he has all of his survival stuff, he replies that he has a gun (a Victory Model, I think) but has never fired it! (In the book, he once fired it six times). By the time that the rescue chopper has also been shot down, pilot Mickey Rooney has added a .30 carbine to their meager armament. In the book, he offered to run back to the 'copter and get a carbine for Brubaker, but I haven't seen the movie in a long time, so don't recall if he got one in the film.

Alas, the North Koreans got them before covering fighters and another 'copter could arrive. (Brubaker's flight was too low on fuel to hang around long.)

Another good film where downed pilots were seen is, Flight of the Intruder, based on Stephen Coonts's first book. In the book, one guy had a S&W M-19 and the other a Colt .45 auto. And in the movie, another, played by Danny Glover, had (I think) a .45. He played dead in his cockpit as a North Viet approached, and killed him when he probed at the "dead" pilot. Good book. I like Coonts's stories. He always makes it clear that aircraft should have guns, not just missles and bombs. He was a Naval aviator during the Vietnam War, flying A-6 Intruders. I suspect that he was one pilot who could use his sidearm, too!

T-Star

 

[walnutred]

My dad was not a pilot but was a Navy aircrew member in WW2 and Korea. TBMs and PBYs. He said that the configuration he ended WW2 with was a S&W Victory and a M3 Grease Gun. He felt he could shoot better with the S&W than the 1911 and the M3 much lighter than a Thompson and more practical in the jungle than a M1 Carbine.

 

[Big Cholla]

My first father-in-law joined the US Army Cavalry at the age of 15! Long story....... He was sent to Texas and went thru the horse equipped cavalry training. His assigned sidearm was a Colt Government Model 1911. Years later when the Cavalry was disbanded he was given the choice of the mechanized cavalry or the newly formed US Army Air Force. He went into the AAF. He had "lost" his .45 some time earlier. When WW II started he was a crew chief and tail gunner on a B-24. Miraculously, he found a Colt 1911 and darned if it wasn't the old one that he had lost. He carried that Colt all thru WW II while a member of an air crew. After WW II was over he was assigned to an AFB in Japan. He was in Japan for 10 years before returning to the USA. He had that same Colt 1911 in his possession the whole time. He was assigned to Lowry AFB in Denver where the Colt was lost in a house burglary. An aside; he retired from Nellis AFB as a Crew Chief on F 105. In his military career he went from horses to F 105s! ........... Big Cholla

 

[Ranger Grant]

First, I am not a pilot. My Dad was a co-pilot on B-26 Marauders in WWII, and carried an issued .45. He buried that when he got shot down over France. He came down in acres of plowed fields with no place to run/hide, and the Krauts coming.

In Korea he flew H-5, and H-19 helecopters. Again, he carried an issued .45. He also scrounged and M1 carbine w/M2 conversion, and 4 to 6 magazines. He also scrounged up some hand grenades. Just before leaving he told Mom, I will not be captured taken prisoner AGAIN! He wasn't.

Ranger Grant

 

[Oscar Zulu]

Korean War Pilot

My Dad flew F-84G's in the Korean War. He was issued a 1911 that had to be worn at all times (He was shot at on his way to the showers one night) and carried a Western fixed blade knife in his flight suit leg pocket to stick his life raft if it ever inflated while he was still using the airplane!
O.Z.

 

[armenius]

I had a friend who flew F84 in Korea,carried a Combat Masterpiece 38 Sp.

 

[CQB27]

Dad was a Skyraider pilot in Korea (Marine Corps). When he first got there he carried his personally owned Luger, since no one really cared what a pilot carried. Soon afterward, someone up the food chain decided pilots would carry issued handguns, so he was issued a Victory Model 38. Out of the pilots in VMA 121 while he was there, he says everyone carried 38's, with the exception of a former Marine infantry officer who had become a pilot, he carried a Government Model 1911.
The ammo they carried was mostly tracer, which was to be used to mark your location in the event you had to ditch your plane.
This was taken in 1953 Korea (K6 airbase) Dad is wearing his Victory Model crossdraw. The holster is actually designed to be a shoulder rig, but Dad says it was a PITA with all the crap he had to wear strapped in, so he and most of the pilots carried it as you see here

I was stationed in Korea for 13 months in 1992/93. My quarters looked exactly like the quanset hut your father is standing in front of. I guess somethings never change.