jaydoc
Member
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2018
- Messages
- 11
- Reaction score
- 36
Can this 38 special shoot +P ammo?
- Thread starter jaydoc
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
If you just think...........
of most mainstream modern ammo as "minus P" because original loadings were downgraded for many reasons, then +P just means they added back the powder they took out years ago.
Are there beefy loads out there I would not regularly shoot? yep, but to answer your question, yes, just watch the stated ballistics. mho
of most mainstream modern ammo as "minus P" because original loadings were downgraded for many reasons, then +P just means they added back the powder they took out years ago.
Are there beefy loads out there I would not regularly shoot? yep, but to answer your question, yes, just watch the stated ballistics. mho
hkcavalier
US Veteran
No. They appear to be some sort of aftermarket grip imitating the "Cokes" which were typically on early .44 Magnums. They look very nice, though with some small overruns at the bottom edge. Most aftermarket designs have a thicker border around the checkering so I'm at a loss on this one.
The front sight has been filed down and, since there's not bare steel there, it's been refinished. From the pictures it seems like Cerakote or the Duracoat "Durablue" coating.
With all the modifications it's probably not all that appealing to a collector, but guns like these are great candidates for further work, like reaming to .357 (no barrel swap needed) or even conversion to other calibers like .45 Colt, .44 Special, or .41 Magnum. Or keep it as-is, but perhaps have a competent gunsmith fix the front sight into something useable.
I have a 1950 example wearing slightly newer Magnas plus a period Tyler T-Grip.
DWalt
Member
I have always considered "+P" as being more of an advertising gimmick rather than as an improvement in effectiveness. The .38-44 loading of the early 1930s was far more powerful and operated at a much higher chamber pressure than today's .38 Special +P loads, yet many of that time used them in all kinds of .38 Special revolvers without concern and without damage to those revolvers.
Last edited:
Jim Watson
Member
He sure knocked a lot off the front sight. Or replaced it with that square blade.
I wonder what load and range it is zeroed for. Let us know.
I wonder what load and range it is zeroed for. Let us know.
hkcavalier
US Veteran
While most of it is 35+ years old, there's the "law enforcement only" .38 +P+ stuff. I have a box of the 147gr Federal FBI load that I've set aside for my H-D. I doubt there's any way to hurt it with .38s. If it runs fine with .357s (if reamed for it), even a .38 proof load is far below a .357 in power and pressure.
I have not reloaded anything special for the H-D as I'm pretty worried about keeping them separate. I have too many elderly .38 Specials that wouldn't care much for a 25,000+ psi load.
I have not reloaded anything special for the H-D as I'm pretty worried about keeping them separate. I have too many elderly .38 Specials that wouldn't care much for a 25,000+ psi load.
ANY/EVERY .38 Special revolver ever made will handle "+P"!!
Any/ALL doubters need only have a look at yester-year's ballistic tables, and compare them to today's---where you will see today's +P bears a remarkable similarity to yester-year's fodder. And don't overlook the fact yester-year's ammo was downloaded in between times.
If/when +P causes ANY damage (or better yet, any injury to a shooter) you will be inundated by TV ads from the Plaintiff's Bar urging the "injured parties" to call 1-800-BAD AMMO to sign on as a Plaintiff in suing the pants off of the ammunition maker(s). They (the Plaintiff's Bar) are sitting quietly as we speak----just waiting for such an opportunity---and drooling at the prospect. AND the ammo companies know it (!!!!), 'cause their Mommies didn't raise no dumb kids.
The + in +P refers to the increased profit margins enjoyed by the folks who make it----and why not. They're the ones who came up with all the hype swallowed hook, line, and sinker, by the folks who buy it.
Ralph Tremaine
OH!!! And don't overlook the new guns---those rated for +P---and stamped as so right on the barrel. What better way to sell a bunch of new guns? Well, why not---that's what they do---make stuff to sell---in exchange for YOUR money! It is the way of the world!
Any/ALL doubters need only have a look at yester-year's ballistic tables, and compare them to today's---where you will see today's +P bears a remarkable similarity to yester-year's fodder. And don't overlook the fact yester-year's ammo was downloaded in between times.
If/when +P causes ANY damage (or better yet, any injury to a shooter) you will be inundated by TV ads from the Plaintiff's Bar urging the "injured parties" to call 1-800-BAD AMMO to sign on as a Plaintiff in suing the pants off of the ammunition maker(s). They (the Plaintiff's Bar) are sitting quietly as we speak----just waiting for such an opportunity---and drooling at the prospect. AND the ammo companies know it (!!!!), 'cause their Mommies didn't raise no dumb kids.
The + in +P refers to the increased profit margins enjoyed by the folks who make it----and why not. They're the ones who came up with all the hype swallowed hook, line, and sinker, by the folks who buy it.
Ralph Tremaine
OH!!! And don't overlook the new guns---those rated for +P---and stamped as so right on the barrel. What better way to sell a bunch of new guns? Well, why not---that's what they do---make stuff to sell---in exchange for YOUR money! It is the way of the world!
Last edited:
DWalt
Member
Seems like every shooter goes for wherever is billed as the biggest and baddest caliber, even though very, very few will ever need it. That was he real message of "Dirty Harry."
hkcavalier
US Veteran
It's an N-frame S&W 38 Special, that makes it part of the Heavy Duty line and is perfectly safe with any 38 Special, 38 Special +P or 38 Special +P+ ammo. With the introduction of the 357 Magnum, many people who owned a S&W 38-44 HD revolver had the cylinders reamed to accept the longer 357 Magnum cartridge. I am not aware of any such modified HD revolvers suffering cylinder damage, so I think that speaks volumes as to the strength of the HD revolvers. I would not recommend reaming an unmodified cylinder today as unmodified HD's are worth more than one that has been altered. But from a safety standpoint, you cannot damage one with any 38 Special load.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,660
- Reaction score
- 21,298
Agree, it will safely fire any .38 Special +P factory load. If you load your own I would still stay within known charges and pressure guidelines, if you feel the need to hot rod your 70 year old revolver.
Perhaps Mr. Yost still has a record of building the gun, especially for what load the front sight was regulated? It looks much more visible than the stock rounded blade but to me out of place visually.
Model19man
Member
I think given the age I wouldn't use +P in that revolver. It probably won't hurt anything but what would you prove?
.38 spl +P ammo rating is 20,000 PSI max compared to std pressure max of 17,000 PSI. Many 38/44s have been rechambered to .357 which has a 35,000 PSI max rating. Yes a 38/44 HD will shoot all of the +P .38 spl you want without any harm. Most factory +P .38 spl ammo probably only runs at about 18,000 PSI given the fact that even std pressure ammo probably runs at about a standard 10 % reduction from max pressures for a "safety" feature. In Handloader magazine articles on loading the .38 spl Brian Pearce exceeds factory +P velocities without exceeding the 17,000 PSI standard pressure level. So much for "hot" factory +P ammo 
Is there any particular reason that you want to shoot +P or +P+ ammo in that nice old .38/44 HD? I can't imagine that you want to use that HD for CCW. And if you're just plinking, good ole run-of-the-mill .38 Special would be ideal. Just curious. I routinely carry a 642-2 for EDC, and it's loaded with Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special hollow points...no +P. As a matter of fact, many folks are now moving towards the "lite" (lower power) loads for EDC with snubbies and shorter barreled revolvers.
My thoughts exactly. I have never understood the desire to shoot +P or +P+ ammunition unless you are planning to pull off an armored car heist.
Perhaps my age is showing but I go to my gun club (47 years now) and hear shooters on the outdoor range shooting multiple shots in rapid succession and wonder exactly what are they practicing for? I guess I fall into the old school of one well placed shot is all that is necessary unless one is preparing for the zombie apocalypse. IIRC that requires a head shot which on a moving target is much more difficult than shooting for center of mass.
If anyone has the answers to rapid fire or needing ++P++ ammo, please enlighten me.......
I also mean no offense to anyone that subscribes to these practices but just curious as to why.
There's another earlier post about the velocities in olden days. So, let's discuss "published velocities".
Through the 1960s chorographs were owned by ammo companies, powder companies, a few independent ballistics labs, various DOD entities and contractors and some famous gun writers. What was published-by the factories-was generally regarded as fact. I can still recall an article by Jack O'Connor after Winchester introduced the .264 Winchester cartridge with great hoopla over velocites/trajectory. The actual velocity from a production gun wasn't a significant improvement over the .270. The older Lyman manuals had a section in the back where they showed what factory ammo did in the test guns they used in their load development. There's some significant differences shown there.
This all came to a head when chronographs became consumer goods and folks became aware of the differences between claimed and what they saw in their guns. SAAMI changed the test procedures for handgun ammunition. The new process used barrels of the lengths generally seen in that caliber and revolver barrels were vented to simulate the barrel/cylinder gap. Published velocities dropped to real world levels.
Then pressure testing went from copper crusher (CUP) to piezo electric (PSI) methods. Pressure spikes that were unknown with the CUP method now became known. I've a manual downstairs that has an entry that the .45 ACP data with 200 gr bullets isn't a misprint, it's the result of previoiusly unknown (very briefly) excessive pressures.
Also recall that compliance with SAAMI specs is voluntary. If any ammo company chooses to jack up pressures to improve performance, no big deal so long as they're reasonable about it. The .38/.44 figures in here*. The formal +P ratings resulted from an agreement between ammo and gun makers as to what's reasonable beyond original SAAMI pressure maximums in certain calibers.
+P+ is a whole 'nother situation. It originated with a desire by governmental agencies for better ammo performance with the bullet designs of the day. Those agencies signed lengthy hold harmless agreements that noted increased wear and possible destruction of the firearm and injuries and/or death to the users*. The pressures will be whatever is necessary to meet the contract requirements. Be aware that most such ammo on the open market didn't meet specifications in some manner. Out of simple curiousity, I picked up a couple of boxes of 9mm by a famous maker and it wasn't significantly faster than their +P ammo.
*See the difference lawyers make in similar situations 60 years apart.
Last edited:
skwchock
US Veteran
I agree with James Redfield. I see lots of ads for guns that have HUGE capacity. Why? Do you really need the 18+1? A revolver with 6 should be sufficient in most circumstances -- except during a zombie attack. Then, 18+1 wouldn't do you any good either. I was always taught that shot placement was critical. Spray and pray is not a good way.
