CANOE ADVICE

[BikerRN]

Howdy all,



Wife is wanting to get some form of watercraft and our financial situation being what it is we settled for a canoe. We will be camping at local lakes and I'll do some fishing by myself while she does whatever it is she does. She wants to paddle around on the water a little and just have some fun. We will also do some class 1 and 1+ stuff nearby on a local river.



Niether of us has canoe expirience, but that will change shortly. I've been looking at two different canoes and need help making up my mind. Do I get the Mad River Adventure 14 or the Old Town Guide 147? Please tell me why you selected what you choose. Thanks in advance for your help.



Biker

 

[jeepjeepwhat]

Between your two choices I would go with the Old Town. I personally prefer the construction of the Old Town over the molded construction of the Mad River.

If you were open to suggestions, I would suggest a Coleman Scanoe. It is a canoe except the back of it is flat instead of pointed, so you can mount a small electric motor. It handles, and drifts the same as a canoe, but it gives you a HUGE option of the motor. I've had a Scanoe for about 15 years and use it about 6 times a year. I've maybe mounted an electric motor on it a total of 5 times. I Know 5 times isn't a lot however, I enjoy knowing I have the versatility there.

Have you looked at kayaks? They are easier, and ergo more fun to use by yourself than a canoe. It's harder to pack gear into a kayak for overnight or camp trip, but for day trips they are a lot of fun.

I have a coleman scanoe, a old town canoe, and a no name brand canoe I got at a yard sale for $40. They are all 3 different, but are just a "canoe". I guess I mean there are no huge differences between them. They have different seats, one has a storage compartment and the scanoe has a flat back, but all of these things are personal preferences and don't change the performance of the canoe.

I would go not so far out on a limb and say that all of the canoes you see hanging from the ceiling at a sporting good shop are gonna do the same thing. Now you can go and spend a real good chunk of money on a really nice canoe, that is supposed to track straighter, less resistant, better ergonomics, and made out of some kind of rare foreign wood but nobody wants to be a canoe snob.

 

[jkc]

One option you didn't mention is one or another variation of Grumman square-stern aluminum canoes, which are able to mount a small outboard (a highly desirable feature), and otherwise perform like a traditional double-ended canoe. Moreover, the aluminum canoe can be simply turned upside-down, secured, and ignored indefinitely, whereas any plastic canoe needs to be stored under cover of UV sunlight radiation, to avoid degradation. If rocky river use is not anticipated, the lightweight Grumman square-sterns are an excellent choice --- my 16' version is easily single-handedly manhandled on/off my trucktop roof rack. Aluminum is a poor choice for rocky whitewater, but excellent for flatwater and moderate (Class 1) river work, and requires no protection or maintenance.

 

[canoeguy]

If you anticipate using the canoe with two people and camping gear, you'll need at least a 16' canoe, preferably a 17'. A 14" canoe is very small when loaded with gear and two people.

The longer the canoe, the greater speed (efficiency) and stability. A 17' canoe is capable of cruising at 3 MPH (average speed) with two moderately skilled paddlers, the best speed you can get out of a 14' canoe is 2 MPH with the same paddlers. 1/3 faster and more efficient...

Square stern canoes work well with a motor, but paddle horribly.

Old Towns are good canoes, and have many models to choose from in the 16-17' length.

You should be able to find a good used canoe cheaply in the local trading paper, Craigs List, etc. Lots of people buy a canoe, use it seldom, and sell them cheap.

 

[FTG-05]

My son bought an Old Town Sportsman canoe last year for about $350 with $50 rebate from Dick's Sporting goods.

It's 14' long and pretty wide for it's length, which makes it very stable. It's capacity is three people and/or 750 lbs, so it can carry two big people plus some camping gear.

Very tough canoe, I highly recommend it.

Good luck.

 

[cass]

One option you didn't mention is one or another variation of Grumman square-stern aluminum canoes, which are able to mount a small outboard (a highly desirable feature), and otherwise perform like a traditional double-ended canoe. Moreover, the aluminum canoe can be simply turned upside-down, secured, and ignored indefinitely, whereas any plastic canoe needs to be stored under cover of UV sunlight radiation, to avoid degradation. If rocky river use is not anticipated, the lightweight Grumman square-sterns are an excellent choice --- my 16' version is easily single-handedly manhandled on/off my trucktop roof rack. Aluminum is a poor choice for rocky whitewater, but excellent for flatwater and moderate (Class 1) river work, and requires no protection or maintenance.

I had the Grumman regular stern with the add-on side mount for a trolling motor. Like mentioned above, they're not too great for rocky waters, and the large keel is a real pain in shallow water.

 

[Iggy]

I agree on the 16 footer. If you are going to do much camping, you will appreciate the extra room. Itchy and I did quite a bit of lake cruising and traveled much of the North Platte river in a 16 foot Aluminum canoe.

As others have mentioned, very little maintaince is required.

 

[turbo38gn]

We just went with the 14' Scanoe for the very reason Jeep pointed out, we can install an electric motor. We bought that too, a 55 lb thrust Minn Kota motor. So far, since I own an 8 second drag car, I have been content with 2 mph canoe rides... I bought my canoe to cruise and enjoy the surroundings. Coleman also sells a Scanoe in a 16' model for more space.... but have to agree about the advantage of having the motor option. Great info Canoeguy, I do appreciate all the info, my lack of experience doesn't know the diff about paddling variables between a square stern canoe and a double hulled canoe, our scanoe seems to paddle great.

JK, you are right on about storing our canoes, just the other day I saw a canoe next to a driveway on 2 sawhorses, it was junk, the bottom was buckled in 2 places. I rigged up a rope and pulley set up and suspend it from the bottom of my deck.

 

[DeadAye]

I don't know where you are -- Here in TN any watercraft with a motor has to be registered annually. A double ended canoe does not.

 

[Rule3]

Old Town Camper. Light and STABLE. Not the fastest but you want stable.

Camper 15 Canoe - Old Town Canoes and Kayaks

 

[Bekeart]

17 FOOT Fiberglass - my choice

Buy local, or where you are willing to drive, for picking it up.
Shipping charges on a canoe are HIGH.


My choice is 17 foot fiberglass. Molded plastic canoes are often springy/spongy with more flexing of the hull than I want. I do not want the hull to feel springy when I move around

Aluminum canoes are noisy and will dent. BUT they seem to last forever. Cheap aluminum canoes have high drag coefficient in the water because the ends do not have the complex curves built into their ends that are needed to reduce drag.

Grumman canoes will last forever and do have complex curves built into the ends for low drag. The square stern version gives up the low drag coefficient for ease of mounting motor on centerline.

Fiberglass and molded plastic canoes CAN have efficient low drag curves in their design; BUT not all do.

If the curves ends of the canoe could be made with a single arc/curve on each side it will be slow. Think of bending a yardstick. Usually an "S" bend will be faster than a "C" bend.

Hull shape:
FLAT bottom (side to side) Stable (harder to tilt) and good lake and flat water canoe.
Curved bottom (side to side) easier to tilt.

Keel – Deeper keel makes easier to go in straight line, more difficult for quick turning.

Here is web link to an authoritative dealer:

Paddlers gateway to canoeing, sea kayaking, whitewater, cruising and racing information in Chicago from Chicagoland Canoe Base

Ralph Frese has been a fountain of canoe knowledge for MANY years. If Mr. Frese doesn't know the answer he will know someone who does.

I remember the sign in his shop many years ago:
“We know canoes and blacksmithing, the rest we guess.”



Bekeart

 

[walnutred]

I have a Grumman Sportboat that I love, but I do not use it as a canoe. We sail it, we row it, we scull it, we use it with a 3hp gas motor but we don't paddle it. It's a little wide for good paddling. However we have used every bit of the 1100 lb capacity she is rated for.

 

[sipowicz]

Canoes are great for married couples since you sit in the same direction...so if she's yapping you can make all the faces you want and she'll never see them.

 

[35Rem]

If you want to stay married, and dry, get 2 kayaks. The 2 in one thing doesn't always work well, and a sideways conoe = a sideways partner...

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

I've had canoes all my life. Although nothing high end, mind you. Go with at least a 17 footer. That extra foot gives you a lot more room over a 16 footer than you's expect.
As many have said, aluminum are darn near indestructible but are noisy and will not slide off the rocks as easy as polymer hulls. They usually have a keel and so track straighter than keel-less canoes. A lot of canoe snobs turn up their noses at the Grummans and Ouchita's but there really isn't anything wrong with starting out with an aluminum canoe. Maintenance and storage issues are zero. I usually see them sell used for around $350 here in PA. And if you do smash one up beyond repair you can always sell it for scrap!
The Coleman canoes will also take a beating but are heavy and require more effort to paddle. Their hulls are not very stiff and so flex quit a bit when loaded and on the water. That makes for a lot of drag, kinda act like a suction cup as you glide along! I spent a week in Algonquin Park in Canada with a friend. I had my 17" Ouchita and he took a Coleman. After a couple days we switched canoes and it was immediately apparent that the old tin boat glided through the water and tracked straighter with a lot less effort than did the Coleman. Coleman used to make a snap-in plastic seat back that is nice to have though. It can be used on other brands too.
The Mad River canoe and similar products are stiffer hulled and handle easier. But I not sure I like the molded seats. I like to do a lot of butt shifting when paddling.

If you think you will be using a small motor it is not necessary to have a square end canoe. You can make or buy
a side mount motor bracket which is actually more comfortable to use than a rear mounted motor. You don't have to twist around to use it. Another disadvantage of a square ended canoe is that they tend to sit lower in the water at the stern because there is less hull behind the stern man.

If it's possible in you area, rent a couple different brands and check them out before buying. Have fun.

John

 

[cass]

I don't know where you are -- Here in TN any watercraft with a motor has to be registered annually. A double ended canoe does not.

Same here in Texas. In 1995, the fine for a unregistered motor craft was $156.56. Don't ask how I know this.

 

[Bekeart]

Aluminum - ALMOST indestructible - used for rental

I agree that aluminum canoes are ALMOST indestructible.

Look at the canoes used for rental. I don't remember any that were not aluminum. You might find some that are not aluminum on a lake.

If considering aluminum make sure to try a Gruman. They have lower drag and paddle faster for the same effort than most of the other aluminum canoes. They also hold value better for resale than other brands, like S&W.

If you don't buy this season, consider posting a local WTB for one in fall or December. Off seasson deals can be had.

The extras space in the 17 foot is all full width.

Check where you intend to paddle and see what canoes are being used. Talk with the paddlers and get their opinions. Look for an organized canoe/kayak group in the area.



Bekeart

I've had canoes all my life. Although nothing high end, mind you. Go with at least a 17 footer. That extra foot gives you a lot more room over a 16 footer than you's expect.
As many have said, aluminum are darn near indestructible but are noisy and will not slide off the rocks as easy as polymer hulls. They usually have a keel and so track straighter than keel-less canoes. A lot of canoe snobs turn up their noses at the Grummans and Ouchita's but there really isn't anything wrong with starting out with an aluminum canoe. Maintenance and storage issues are zero. I usually see them sell used for around $350 here in PA. And if you do smash one up beyond repair you can always sell it for scrap!
The Coleman canoes will also take a beating but are heavy and require more effort to paddle. Their hulls are not very stiff and so flex quit a bit when loaded and on the water. That makes for a lot of drag, kinda act like a suction cup as you glide along! I spent a week in Algonquin Park in Canada with a friend. I had my 17" Ouchita and he took a Coleman. After a couple days we switched canoes and it was immediately apparent that the old tin boat glided through the water and tracked straighter with a lot less effort than did the Coleman. Coleman used to make a snap-in plastic seat back that is nice to have though. It can be used on other brands too.
The Mad River canoe and similar products are stiffer hulled and handle easier. But I not sure I like the molded seats. I like to do a lot of butt shifting when paddling.

If you think you will be using a small motor it is not necessary to have a square end canoe. You can make or buy
a side mount motor bracket which is actually more comfortable to use than a rear mounted motor. You don't have to twist around to use it. Another disadvantage of a square ended canoe is that they tend to sit lower in the water at the stern because there is less hull behind the stern man.

If it's possible in you area, rent a couple different brands and check them out before buying. Have fun.

John

 

[DeadAye]

Since the thread is CANOE ADVICE:
I've been lusting for a Sportspal canoe for a long time, but don't know anyone that's had one. *Seems* like a great canoe though.

Anyone here have any experience with one?

 

[Tom Beavert]

Canoe

The Mar River is a far better canoe!
The Guide would be my last choice from Old Town, I would look at the Old Town Discovery. Plastic boats, of good quality, are not 'spongy'.
By far the best all around boat material for what you mentioned is Royalex, whether Mad River/Old Town/other. You can put a moter on any standard canoe.
PM me if you like
be safe
tb

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

BTW Biker,
Choosing what type and brand canoe to get is only half the issue. Have you given thought to which model S&W would be the ideal "canoe gun"?
John