Case trimming

[BC38]

I'm getting ready to start reloading .223/5.56 and have a question about case trimming equipment, specifically the type that uses an internal pilot like this Lyman
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Can the trim length be adjusted? Or does it just trim to a specific length and that's that?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that the thing to do would be to trim all the cases to the minimum length.

Wouldn't that allow for the highest number of reloadings before having to trim the case again? Or am I looking at this the wrong way?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Case Trimming/Case Trimmers: The reason for case trimming is many fold, but the most important reason it to have all your cases in a group end up the same length.

Having an adjustable is one of the most desirable features. The Lee piolet system is a fixed length and is the most affordable, but it indexes off the "Web" or base of the inside of the case. This is not an industry standardized dimension! It can very from brand to brand and lot to lot by the manufacturer. (I bought a used custom rifle with a chamber that cases must be .001 shorter than Standard minimum! I could have it rechambered but it shoots sooo good as is! So I trim to the rifles need, .003" shorter than Industry standard!)

The trimmers like the Lyman index off the bottom (or sometimes, the top) of the rim. These ARE Standardized dimensions. If however the trimmer you choose uses a shell plate from your press, the length can be affected by using a different shell plates (Hornady and others have used system) Be sure to always check for proper adjusted dimensions on these type of trimmers.

At least one type of RCBS trimmer used a plate that is "Quick Release" and slides back and forth. The tension can change from shell to shell allowing length changes of up to +/- .008" in my experience. (that could be .016" total! but most were off by as much as .006") I got rid of that in a hurry!

The two types that give the most consistent results are, ones that grip the rim with a collet (Forrester and RCBS) or a shell body holder (L.E.Wilson)

With the Wilson trimmer I have trimmed very large batches that maintained uniform length within .001"

Many types of rifles won't utilize the accuracy of this quality ammo, but when you are buying equipment, If you get the best, it will perform properly when you do need it!

Ivan

 

[Engineer1911]

Your hands will be aching before the trimming job is done with that manual twister. This one is much better and get the cutter shaft that will fit in a 3/8" electric drill without the little hand crank.

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[rockquarry]

I'm sure there are faster tools available, but I've used the manually-operated Forster for about forty years without problems, trimming many thousands of cases. The cutting stop can be set to provide any overall length desired, but I'm sure most of the other tools can be similarly adjusted.

 

[BC38]

Case Trimming/Case Trimmers: The reason for case trimming is many fold, but the most important reason it to have all your cases in a group end up the same length.

Having an adjustable is one of the most desirable features. The Lee piolet system is a fixed length and is the most affordable, but it indexes off the "Web" or base of the inside of the case. This is not an industry standardized dimension! It can very from brand to brand and lot to lot by the manufacturer. (I bought a used custom rifle with a chamber that cases must be .001 shorter than Standard minimum! I could have it rechambered but it shoots sooo good as is! So I trim to the rifles need, .003" shorter than Industry standard!)

The trimmers like the Lyman index off the bottom (or sometimes, the top) of the rim. These ARE Standardized dimensions. If however the trimmer you choose uses a shell plate from your press, the length can be affected by using a different shell plates (Hornady and others have used system) Be sure to always check for proper adjusted dimensions on these type of trimmers.

At least one type of RCBS trimmer used a plate that is "Quick Release" and slides back and forth. The tension can change from shell to shell allowing length changes of up to +/- .008" in my experience. (that could be .016" total! but most were off by as much as .006") I got rid of that in a hurry!

The two types that give the most consistent results are, ones that grip the rim with a collet (Forrester and RCBS) or a shell body holder (L.E.Wilson)

With the Wilson trimmer I have trimmed very large batches that maintained uniform length within .001"

Many types of rifles won't utilize the accuracy of this quality ammo, but when you are buying equipment, If you get the best, it will perform properly when you do need it!

Ivan

Thanks for the rundown on the types and the pros and cons of each. I have one question about the info though:
When you said
"The trimmers like the Lyman index off the bottom (or sometimes, the top) of the rim. These ARE Standardized dimensions."
Are you referring to the Lyman in the Cabela's link that I put in my first post? Because from looking at it I thought it works just like the Lee Pilot Trimmer - the first one you described as being inaccurate.

FWIW, I am not trying to make match-grade ammo. Just AR-15 fodder for range blasting with my boys so ultimate accuracy isn't the end goal. My main goal is to produce decent quality ammo with the least amount of effort and cost.

 

[BC38]

Your hands will be aching before the trimming job is done with that manual twister. This one is much better and get the cutter shaft that will fit in a 3/8" electric drill without the little hand crank.

Cabela's Online Store - Quality Hunting, Fishing, Camping and Outdoor Gear

Thanks for the link. Did you look at the one I linked in my original post? It comes with a drill adapter. Wouldn't that save a lot of the wear and tear on my hands? Or is the fact that the cutter and holder aren't mounted in a base the part that leads to fatigue?

 

[jdlii]

For trimming cases in volume, check out the Gracey Trimmer and buy the complete set up with the electric motor. As a high power rifle competitor, I trim hundreds of cases a year.

I bought my Gracey Trimmer at Camp Perry, back in the 80's to trim .308 brass. Now that my match rifles are primarily .223, I use it for those cases and bought, of course, the .223 "die" for the trimmer.

I can trim 300 to 500 cases in a couple of hours. In order to avoid blisters, I recommend wearing a rubber surgical glove on the hand that is used to hold the case during the trimming process.

I also recommend the Bob Allen cutter for the Gracey Trimmer, it is a superior design and much easier to adjust.

 

[4barrel]

I have enough brass that I don't trim any more. I clean it--size & deprime --then measure and put in different bags and label when I watch tv. The long ones go in a different place or given away. I have a trimmer like Ivan describes but not a problem when I used it. It is my favorite. I could pick up 1000 rounds of once fired a week but I don't need them. The lyman trimmers are very adjustable. I think I have a spare one.

 

[SMSgt]

That trimmer in the OP's post is a knock off of the Lee hand trimmer, or vice versa. The small "pin" goes through the flash hole and butts against the base of the shell holder device and stops trimming at a manufacturer-set dimension. It does not use the web or inside of the case to determine case length.

It will work fine for AR fodder and will trim many cases quickly with a drill attachment. I have the Lee model, and the only objection I have is the device that holds the cases tends to come loose when using a drill.

For years I used a Herter's trimmer, which was made by Forster. The blades finally wore down, and I "upgraded" to the Hornady lathe trimmer. It really works no faster nor better than the 1975 psuedo-Forster trimmer I previously used.

 

[Skyhunter]

BC38
I would recommend that you get yourself an RCBS "X" die to size that brass once it's trimmed.
The "X" die limits the "growth" of the cases caused by full-length sizing. When I was shooting Hi-Power, I trimmed my once fired cases to minimum length (as per the instructions with the die) and rarely had to trim them again before I had to start tossing them due to enlarged primer pockets or cracked necks or shoulders.
I was usually able to load a case at least 5-6 times before starting to experience failures.
The "X" dies worked so well for me, that I got one (where available) for every cartridge I load that requires FL sizing. Having to trim cases once during the life of the case sure beats having to trim every other or every third loading!
Your mileage may vary, but I've had good luck utilizing that die.

WYT-P
Skyhunter

 

[BC38]

Good input guys. Thanks for explaining the difference between the Lyman and the type that uses the web for determining trim length SMSgt.

I'm guessing that if the factory-set trim length isn't the minimum acceptable length and I decide I want it to trim to the minimum, then taking a few thousanths off the end of the pin would make it trim to the length I want.

I guess I should have given a little more specific info in my original post. I'm not only not looking to produce match ammo, I'm not looking to produce thousands of rounds at a time either. Maybe more like a maximum of 500 rounds per batch.

A $300 or $350 setup is really way overkill for me. Even a $100 tool probably exceeds my needs at this time. It would take a heck of a long time to recoup that investment at 5-10 cents per round savings (vs Wolf or Tula steel cased). Though a $100 setup isn't out of the realm of reasonable consideration for me - because there may come a time when I'll get more use out of it..

 

[BC38]

BC38
I would recommend that you get yourself an RCBS "X" die to size that brass once it's trimmed.
The "X" die limits the "growth" of the cases caused by full-length sizing. When I was shooting Hi-Power, I trimmed my once fired cases to minimum length (as per the instructions with the die) and rarely had to trim them again before I had to start tossing them due to enlarged primer pockets or cracked necks or shoulders.
I was usually able to load a case at least 5-6 times before starting to experience failures.
The "X" dies worked so well for me, that I got one (where available) for every cartridge I load that requires FL sizing. Having to trim cases once during the life of the case sure beats having to trim every other or every third loading!
Your mileage may vary, but I've had good luck utilizing that die.

WYT-P
Skyhunter

Thanks for relating your experience. I'm not familiar with RCB "X" die - is that a neck-sizing only die? Same idea as the Lee neck sizing collet die?

 

[Wise_A]

I really like my LE Wilson, and it can be upgraded to power off a drill, and do a bunch of other stuff like deburring and (I think) primer pocket work.

But to be frank, while it's a super nice bit of kit--literally, jewelry for your reloading bench--and an absolute joy to use, it's also pretty expensive. $100 will buy you a ton of factory ammo. It's also somewhat slow to insert and remove cases from the holder (each case must be given a quick tap to get it out).

A Lee Quick-Trim, if you already have a single-stage press handy, would be cheaper and faster to use, at the expense of the Wilson's impressive accuracy.

 

[rockquarry]

Thanks for relating your experience. I'm not familiar with RCB "X" die - is that a neck-sizing only die? Same idea as the Lee neck sizing collet die?

It's a full-length size die and works as advertised if you follow the directions. I've used X-dies in .220 Swift and .30-06 for at least twenty years without problems.

 

[BC38]

I have enough brass that I don't trim any more. I clean it--size & deprime --then measure and put in different bags and label when I watch tv. The long ones go in a different place or given away. I have a trimmer like Ivan describes but not a problem when I used it. It is my favorite. I could pick up 1000 rounds of once fired a week but I don't need them. The lyman trimmers are very adjustable. I think I have a spare one.

Which Lyman trimmer do you have? The hand-held version I linked, or one of the ones that is like a mini hand-cranked lathe?

One reason I was thinking of getting the hand-held unit I linked in my first post, is that I was thinking I would get a cheap HF variable speed drill and mount it in a little vice. Using the drill adapter that comes with the Lyman hand-held kit, I could lock the drill in the ON position at a low speed, and use the hand-held base and my shell holder to process brass one piece after another.

I would also be able to chuck up inside and outside deburring tool heads and even the pocket reamer head in the drill. Just like in the trimming step, I could lock the drill ON at a slow speed, and process brass piece after piece. Kind of like a motorized processing station.

So, I would process brass like this
1) Tumble a few loads of brass with walnut media
2) Deprime and size a 250-500 piece batch of brass on my press.
3) Chuck up the crimp reamer and remove the crimps on the batch.
4) Chuck up the trimmer and trim batch to min length.
5) Chuck up the inside deburring tool and debur the batch
6) Chuck up the outside deburring tool and debur the batch

If I got one of the mini-lathe units and a drill adapter I could use that for the 4th step above, but it seems like it would be more awkward to operate the trigger and move the drill back and forth than to mount the drill in a vice and place the brass onto the cutter by hand.

Then there is also the cost factor - since the Lyman Universal mini-lathe style trimmer with the drill adapter costs about three to four times as much as the Lyman hand-held version ($115 vs $33).

Those were my thoughts on why I was considering buying the kit I linked in the first post of this thread.

Thoughts?

 

[ggibson511960]

Deburring

Just about any trimming tool will do a good job. Just a matter of how much you want to automate or motorize the process and how adjustable you want the cutter head to be.

My big problem/wish-list item is deburring. The standard RCBS deburring tool that has been around for decades is totally hand held. Uniform results depend on the skill of the operator. Trying to get a tiny radius on both sides of an edge only a few thousandths thick is tough. It's very easy to over-do either inside or outside deburring and bevel the edge completely through to the other diameter, turning the case neck into a nice hole punch die. I've done it.

The tools I've looked at mount the age old RCBS tool or copy in a spindle with no indexing mechanism to exactly uniform the radiused edges. I've gotten to where I scrub my cases inside a piece of 600 grit emery paper to catch the burrs and just break the edge down. It works, but uniformity is suspect and hand labor on the fingers can get tiresome with large lots.

Anybody know of a good tool or method?

 

[BC38]

What? 24 hours and nobody has any thoughts on the process described in post #15?
Has that ever happened in a reloading forum before?

 

[SMSgt]

What? 24 hours and nobody has any thoughts on the process described in post #15?
Has that ever happened in a reloading forum before?

It sounds very similar to the Lee hand trimmer I used. Again, my only complaint was the shell holder would loosen on me. It is not as precise as the lathe-style trimmers, but .001-002 variation in case length isn't going to matter for AR range fodder.

 

[BC38]

It sounds very similar to the Lee hand trimmer I used. Again, my only complaint was the shell holder would loosen on me. It is not as precise as the lathe-style trimmers, but .001-002 variation in case length isn't going to matter for AR range fodder.

Thanks for the reply - I was beginning to imagine crickets chirping

So the issue you were having with the Lee trimmer set was that the jig (for lack of a better term) that the shell holder fits into wouldn't stay tight on the shell holder? Seems like that could be solved with a dab of blue Loctite on the threads of the jig.

What about the idea of mounting the variable speed drill (set on a low speed) in a vice and using it to turn the cutter? Is that something you also tried?

I was looking at this Lyman case prep multi-tool and thinking I could use its inside/outside deburr heads and its primer pocket reamer with the vice-mounted low speed drill too.
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[Ivan the Butcher]

Years ago, I had a spare 1/3 HP motor laying around and mounted a 1/4" drill chuck to it. The motor was strapped to an angle iron, that then went into a bench vise. I could control the speed using a "Dimer Switch" (rheostat) This gave me a continuous speed "light duty" Power Plant that I could mount anywhere and at any angle I desired. That would do you primer crimp and deburring, but would be problematic with any length trimmer.

There is a Forrester trimmer for use in a drill press. Maybe this would work with your idea.

Ivan