cases stuck in my cylinder

Lil'Gun is perfect for the 460. In a handgun round Lil'Gun, H-110, 296 are all considered slow powders.

The fact that you are getting black rings around your primers is a definate sign of way too high pressures and is dangerous!

Stop using rifle primers unless the source of data you are using actually recommends them.

There are a lot of guys who are self proclaimed experts that will say it's OK to do such things, but stick with what the data source you are using says. They have access to pressure equipment that very few others do.

A couple things to check.
1- Try a different lot of brass. I have bought brand new Remington brass for a 300 Weatherby, and using the same loads as in my old Rem brass, I was blowing primers. I later read in one of my gun magazines that Remington recently had turned out some too soft brass. Apparently I had gotten some of this. I switched to a different brand, and no more trouble.

2-How are you dispensing your powder? It may be that your scale is accurate, but whatever you are using to drop your powder is not.

3-Make sure that the bullets you are using are indeed .451-.453", and not actually .458" as is used in rifles. It doesn't matter what it says on the package they came in. I always check that, as soon as I get a new batch of cast bullets, regardless of whether or not they come from a reputable source or not.

4- Though you said that factory loads are fine, they aren't loaded to the SAAMI max specs. If the loads you are using are listed as max, they may be well above what the factroy loads to. Check the throats in your chambers (bullet end)and make sure that they aren't undersized as in .450" or smaller diam. If they are, that will raise pressures significantly, and quickly.

I didn't see the post above when I posted this
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It just goes to show that some of us are on the same page. Your throats are too small for one thing. Ideally, they should be exactly the same as the bore, but .001" over is almost as good with jacketed, and is ideal for cast slugs. They shouldn't be under though. A good gunsmith can open them to the proper diam. for around $50.

Cast slugs using a gas check will increase pressures over non checked, and if you are using data for non checked bullets, you need to backoff a couple of grains.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I too am a Christian, so it's always nice to meet others who believe.</span>
 
Wow, good info from you guys! The hornady manual sayes to use WLR primers.
I will try new brass. The brass I used was once shot hornady brass. I compared my scale to another, and it was the same. I weigh out each individual one and do not just trust the powder charger. The bullets are definetly .452 not .458. I am going to try to single shot it and not use much of a crimp at all to see if I am crimping them to tight. I will then try some new brass, and talk to smith and wesson themselves for possible problems with my gun specs.
Thanks again all for the wise advice.
Praise be to God for his indescribable gift.
 
Don't loosen that crimp! Whoever gave you that advice was mistaken! The big rounds with lots of slow burning powder need a heavy crimp to allow for consistant ignition and a good bullet pull. If you have a mild crimp, pressures will be erratic as will velocities. A quick call to any of the powder companies will back me up on this one.
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Also, get those throats opened up to .452-.453"
That alone might solve all your problems. Most reloaders and shooters aren't even aware of this, and when you try to tell them about it, they have become so set in their ways and beliefs, that often they wont listen. It will definately improve the accuracy potential of your gun, and lower pressures.
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am using data for the cpb wln gc. I was told that when reloading cast bullets you can use load data for whatever other kind of bullet that is stated for that weight.

Are you using data intended for jacketed bullets to load cast bullets?
If so, that is your problem. Lead bullets seal better, and take less powder than jacketed bullets.
 
Originally posted by OKFC05:
am using data for the cpb wln gc. I was told that when reloading cast bullets you can use load data for whatever other kind of bullet that is stated for that weight.

Are you using data intended for jacketed bullets to load cast bullets?
If so, that is your problem. Lead bullets seal better, and take less powder than jacketed bullets.

Not exactly right.
Lead doesn't seal quite as well as jacketed bullets unless the alloy is perfect for the particular gun they're being fired in, but it slides down the bore with relatively little resistance compared to jacketed, thus pressures are less and the loads listed will almost always be higher in velocity, than those listed for jacketed bullets. If using jacketed bullets with loads intended for lead bullets, then yes, pressures will be higher by several thousand PSI.
 
<span class="ev_code_RED">Edited in responce to the above edit-</span>
[Nice of you to edit after the fact to try to make me look bad. Your edit says what I've been saying. Lead takes less powder to get equal velocity, and that isn't what you had posted!]

You only listed part of the chart there, without showing that those two loads will give very similar velocities as listed. That is exactly because of what I said. Lead bullets slide down the bore easier and create less pressure. Therefore it takes less powder to equal the velocity of a jacketed load.

I fail to see what has got you so upset as to post a statement like the one above. I don't believe anything I have posted will mislead or confuse the OP.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Don't take my word for what I posted, call the powder companies and they'll back what I posted. If you want to be close minded and not take some good advice that's your right. I can back what I posted and you can't.
The only thing that will make a lead bullet create equal or higher pressure than a jacketed bullet, is if it has a considerably longer bearing surface than a jacketed bullet of the same weight.
 
Maybe the data you used is a misprint, it wouldn't be the first time.

I just went to Hodgdens website and quickly took a couple of loads to give you an example-
These are listed for the .357

158 Hor. XTP 7.0 gr. AUTOCOMP=1181 FPS, @ 33,200 PSI

158 MEI cast LSWC 6.5 gr AUTOCOMP=1237 FPS, @ 27,000PSI

Lead = less powder, higher velocity, lower pressure. It's like this all over the powder charts, on all the websites. This is the norm.
 
Marine,
I have loaded a LOT of 460. Exactly what charge weight and brand of bullet are you loading? I have had stuck cases only with W296 and they too were at both min and max loads. It made no sense since everything was "by the book". Solution was simple. I switched to 2400 for fast loads and for light loads I like either Unique (dirty, but I could care less) or my new fav, Trail Boss.

Crimp is not your problem and the 460 should use large rifle primers only.

I also only use XTP, Speer Gold Dot, Nosler, Sierra, or X-Treme jacketed....never cast, my trials did not show promise of high velocity and good accuracy with lead. And I HATE cleaning it out the barrel. However, I agree with Gun4fun, it is common knowledge that Lead bullets go faster with less pressure with less powder than jacketed. I also load ONLY lead for my 45 Colt. So you see I am not opposed to using cast lead bullets, but I don't care for them in a 460.

Bottom line...my suggestion is to get a box of XTP or Gold Dolt 250 grain (.452")and load them with say 14 grains of Trail Boss for a plinker or say 30 grains of 2400. I bet they do not stick. If they do...you do in fact have a "problem".

Hope this helps.
HD2
 
I had a problem with the 460 Rowland,the cci primers blew out on minor loads,I switched to Federal 150 and they hold even on max loads.
 
One thing to consider here is the OAL of the bullet he is using. You have to consider the length of the bullet below the crimp groove on the cast bullets. Some bullets of identical weight are longer than others. Also the length of the bullet that enters the case may be more. Nose profile of the bullet is one thing that can alter these measurements. More bullet in the case means a reduction in case capacity which will raise pressure. This is one reason they list a specific bullet for a specific load recipe. Just my two cents.
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Cary
 
Originally posted by Cary:
One thing to consider here is the OAL of the bullet he is using. You have to consider the length of the bullet below the crimp groove on the cast bullets. Some bullets of identical weight are longer than others. Also the length of the bullet that enters the case may be more. Nose profile of the bullet is one thing that can alter these measurements. More bullet in the case means a reduction in case capacity which will raise pressure. This is one reason they list a specific bullet for a specific load recipe. Just my two cents.
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Cary

Cary- you are right on. I assume he is using load data from a reputable source. Most cast bullets have a crimp groove, and the data provided is based on that crimp groove for that cast bullet, so as long as he is following their recipe, that shouln't factor in.

I do know from first hand experience, that undersized throats will cause all sorts of accuracy and pressure problems as well as contribute to leading of the barrel with cast bullets.
 
Have you checked your scale? If you don't have a check weight then weigh several factory bullets. If the bullet is off from the spec weight then have someone with a known good scale check against yours.
 
Could it be that even the start load data for the bullet is too high? I was using 36 gr of lil gun on a 370 gr cast .452 bullet with a large rifle primer.................off subject, but could I use a large pistol match primer on this pistol?
 
I measured my cylinder throat at .450, I called S&W and they said to send it in and they will have a look at it. Hopefully that is the problem. Not that that would be a good thing, but Maybe that will fix it. I'll let you all know when I find out what they have to say. I called yesterday though and they said they could not tell me what the exact dimensions of the throat should be because they did not have the info there. Whats up with that!?!?
 
Stick with whatever primer is used in the data that you are using. Cross reference your source with several others. Misprints happen far too frequently on powder charges listed for my comfort.
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I use Lil'Gun in my .475 Linebaugh almost exclusively with cast bullets, and I have never had any trouble.
 
Originally posted by marine247:
Could it be that even the start load data for the bullet is too high? I was using 36 gr of lil gun on a 370 gr cast .452 bullet with a large rifle primer.................off subject, but could I use a large pistol match primer on this pistol?

Not unless you want more of a visible problem! The other part of it is that the pistol primer is shorter and you may not be able to "reach it" with your firing pin consistently.

First off though, on their website, there is NO data for that bullet weight. How are you getting data for it? What is the OAL that you are using? Do you have to force the rounds into the chamber?

I hate to be blunt but it would seem to be something you are doing rather than the firearm. Could you get some pictures of your rounds? This would help us help you diagnose the problem immensely. If you don't know how to post them, my email is in my profile, send them to me and I will post them.

I hope to be a help to you even though I don't load for this caliber.
 
Your throats should be .452-453" as I posted before. That dimension works great with .451-453 dia. bullets and will eliminate one possible (and probable) cause of the high pressures.
 
Primers are important and need to be correct for your brass. If the pockets were formed for pistol primers, and you use rifle primers, they will be too high and stick out beyond the head. This could cause them to be set off while not in line with the bore!
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On the other hand, if they were formed for rifle primers, pistol primers will be rather deep and as smith Crazy said, you may experience ignition problems.
 
I just went and dug out an issue of handloader magazine that has loading info for the .460 S&W.
the article is by Brian Pearce (the best writer out there right now), and is in issue 242 August/September 2006. The article starts on page 74. On page 81 he has load data.

The following is copied directly from that list.-
360 Oregon Trail WNFP GC -Lil'Gun 40.0 gr 1,717 FPS

395 Cast Performance WLN GC -Lil'Gun 34.0 gr 1,477 FPS

395 Cast Performance WLN GC -Lil'Gun 36.5 gr 1,586 FPS (maximum)

S&W model460XVR w/ 7.5" BBL., Starline cases, CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers Temps during testing were 15 degrees Far. Saami maximum average pressure: 65,000 PSI

So it would appear your load is within specs, and even a little below. Of course it depends on what bullet you are using, but most of the heavy weights are designed to be seated correctly for use in .454's and .460's.
 

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