cases stuck in my cylinder

[Schofieldkid81]

Hey, I have been experiencing a similar problem. I have a PC 460 10.5", and I have been loading with hornady 300xtp, lil'gun, 40.0 grains (starting load, Standard rifle primers. I have experienced semi-stuck cases with this load, I had previosly used data from NwCP that was 38.0 and 39.5 without any problems. The case took abnormal amount of force to extract using the extractor rod. I believe it was only one case out of the five that had the problem though.

 

[marine247]

To answer smith crazy's answer: I used 360 gr load data for the 370 gr bullet. I mean if the load data for a 395gr sayes to use between 34 to 40gr. I think I was well enough safe to be loading 370gr bullet with 36gr of powder.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well,
To a certain extent, yes, that is an assumption one can make MOST of the time. When It can't be done is when the bullet types are completely different.

Two lead bullets are NOT necessarily similar enough to exchange data like that. Nose configuration, bullet design, ballistic coefficient all come into play then.

I can hear you say "WHAT? BC comes into play." In this way, how deep does the bullet go into the case? If the bullet is a "1R" type bullet where the nose has most of the weight then you might get away with using an OAL for another type of bullet. If you go from a standard type of SWC to a Keith design, yo can get away with it too because most of the bullet weight is designed to be outside the case. But turn those things around and you can have a bunch more in the case or up against the cylinder throat and viola, pressure goes up exponentially.

How much "set back" can a bullet have in the 460 before the pressure spikes in a real bad way? Don't know? Me either, but I'll bet you it happens just the same.

Nose shape, bullet depth in the case can change drastically with different bullets. If it were me, I would run the minimum load over a chronograph, see where I was and back it down until I lost the pressure signs.

If you don't have a chronograph, get one!


FWIW

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

+1 on smith crazy's post!

Get a chrono if you don't have one, and if you do, then use it as much as possible. They will give you all sorts of info if you pay attention to the readings.

For instance, if you are adding a half grain at a time in a large case like the 460, and seeing a steady gain of say, just for example (don't take this as literal) 50 FPS. Then all of a sudden you jump to a 100 or 150 FPS gain, this is a sign that you have crossed over into too high a pressure zone/safe pressures and need to back down to at least the last increment that was tracking with all the others before it.

<span class="ev_code_RED">These are just random numbers used for an illustration, don't take them as fact!</span>

 

[Smitty500Mag]

Why would anyone give this guy direction to make changes to his gun when the damn gun shoots just fine with factory rounds? It's not the gun it's the reloads!!

Be careful when taking advice on a gun forum make sure you know who your talking to.

Smitty

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

This is a reloading forum. What else are we supposed to talk about?

I don't believe anyone was giving advice on making changes to his gun, other than having the throats changed to proper diameter. We are talking about his reloads and things he can check.

Factory loads do not run at SAAMI specs, they are running several thousand PSI under normally. So it may not be his reloads. If his loads are a little warmer than factory loads, but still within SAAMI specs (as all loads listed in the manuals are), and his throats are undersized (as his are), then he might experience exactly what he has been.

He asked for opinions and advice, and that's what we're giving him.

Are you saying that he should take advice from you, but no one else?

 

[Houndog2]

slightly OT but the talk of cylinder throats reminded me of this article....I bought the reamer from Dave Manson for my Uberti. Yes they were small and yes the gun shoots better after reaming them.
HD2
http://www.gunblast.com/Brownells_Reamer.htm

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

He makes great stuff. I only live about 25 miles from his shop. Thanks for the post!

 

[Skip Sackett]

I saw you are a Christian...I am a believer also. What a good combo of weapons, Marine Corps, and CHRISTIANITY.

You will have to forgive me, my brother, I just realized I missed this part of your post! "Oldtimer's" I guess!

I have training in two types of warfare, natural and spiritual. I think of the Frank Peretti books. If, they are novels so you can't build doctrine from them, they are anyway near what really takes place in the spiritual realm, I think knowledge of that real is WAY more important!

Once again, sorry for the poor reading habits, I'll try to do better in the future!

 

[Smitty500Mag]

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:

Are you saying that he should take advice from you, but no one else?

You damn right 'cause I'm not the one telling him to go making changes to his gun.. Anybody that tells someone to alter their gun when factory ammo is shooting just fine in it is an idiot!! And anybody that would take that advice is even more stupid!!

Smitty

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

It is a well documented fact that Smith has put out guns with undersized throats, which in turn causes high pressures.

I suppose Dave Manson decided to go to all the expense and trouble to design and make his throating reamers for no apparent reason.

It has been reported on several occasions in Handloader magazine. I suppose every one but you could be wrong..........but I doubt it.

 

[marine247]

Well I like the input you have given so far...oh wait you havn't. How about you give some good advice on what you think I should do instead, and re-think what you say before you say it. I really would love to hear what you have to say about my problem I'm having with my pistol.

 

[lafayne]

IMHO the tight cylinder throats could be part of the problem. Also, a too soft lead bullet pushed with too much pressure could also cause significant pressure increase. Too hard lead bullets may cause leading and degraded accuracy, but probably not more pressure gain than a jacketed bullet. Sounds like the advice to stay with jacketed bullets for HV loads may be sound advice.

 

[marine247]

My last post was directed to smitty 500mag, not gun 4 fun...just wanted to clarify.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Marine,
Do you have any way to get pictures onto the web? I would like to see your rounds if possible. Sometimes, not always, things can be seen by others that aren't obvious to those that have loaded them.

If you need some help to get them on the web, email me and I will help you through it.

I'm kinda in the "there ain't nothing wrong with the gun" crowd to be honest. If it shoots commercial rounds and not your homemade ones.........

What kind of accuracy do you get with factory ammo?

Usually, throats that are too small show up in accuracy problems. Think about it, the bullet gets "sized" in the throat, then it goes into the forcing cone and is "swaged" down again to the bore size. If your throats are too small then the bullet won't fit the barrel properly and will "bounce" down it, so to speak.
A jacketed bullet still has to obturate some or all of your gasses will escape down the side of it. If you don't have any problem with the factory rounds with accuracy, again...........


At any rate, it would be helpful to see some pictures, please.

 

[marine247]

I'll give it a try. later on today.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

marine247,

I undertood your post above, no problem.

I will tell you this, in 1994 when S&W came out with their Magna Classic series of revo's, they were the most accurate guns Smith had made up to that time. They were the cream of the crop, and they all were designed with throats that measured .428, or some .002-.003" under nominal bullet diameter for the .44 Mag. Smith had apparently determined that there was enough pressure, and resistance to the bullet by the rifling, to re-obturate the bullet to bore size after being squeezed through the smaller throats. I know that seems contradictory to common sense, it still does to me, but that is what they did. It worked too. If you would like I can send you a PDF with the info on it. Just give me your e-mail address, and I'll send it right out. It did however cause pressures to rise rapidly, which I experienced first hand with one of their standard classics with a 5" barrel. I had to knock the cases out of the chambers with a very hard blow to the ejection rod. I eventually traded the gun off (big mistake) only to learn about the throat problem. I could have had it corrected by a gunsmith or done it myself for only a few bucks back then. Apparently others were having similar trouble, because Smith stopped the practice after a few years. They (throats) now measure pretty close to bullet diameter.

 

[Noah Zark]

Originally posted by Smitty500Mag:

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:

Are you saying that he should take advice from you, but no one else?

You damn right 'cause I'm not the one telling him to go making changes to his gun.. Anybody that tells someone to alter their gun when factory ammo is shooting just fine in it is an idiot!! And anybody that would take that advice is even more stupid!!

Smitty

Smitty:

You point is well taken; I could not agree more -- any advice or recommendations should be taken with caution, including published load data from any source -- magazines, loading manuals, reloading forums, whatever.

That said, your point may be better received if it wasn't quite so sharp, and without the four-letter words. Like the saying goes, you can catch more flies with honey than with dilute acetic acid, K?

Thanks,

Noah

 

[Houndog2]

FWIW...I did not have extraction problems with my Uberti and the accuracy was pretty good. After reaming the chambers the groups were smaller and the "fliers" became less common. I put 2 pounds of unique through that gun 7.5 grains at a time before I bought the reamer and about that much since. The interesting thing was that one of the holes was not "round" and the reamer fixed that. Not sure how that happens and it wasn't out much.

I also do not think the gun is the problem if factory rounds are ok. It may have too small chamber s but lots of guns do and they would have to be (IMHO) WAY undersized to cause more than accuracy problems.

I will be interested in the outcome of this.
I bet it's the particular load/bullet.

HD2

 

[marine247]

Here is a pic of 265 gr on left and 370gr on right. both seated to 2.180 with heavy crimp.