CCI LR primers not good for 500SW ?

[Arthury]

I bought my first batch of primers for hand loading the 500SW cartridge and so far, the failure rate is around 7-8% out of the first 200 primers.

How do they fail?
The primers did go off with a really weak pop and about 1/3 of the powder was burnt with a lot of fresh unburnt powder left behind.
The bullet was pushed out and sat at the forcing cone of the revolver.

Do you think I bought a bad batch of CCI primers or are they simply not suitable for revolvers?
Any of you gotten consistent results with CCI LR primers for your rifle cartridges?

 

[MichiganScott]

It sounds like a classic case of the primer not being struck hard enough for proper ignition. I use nothing but CCI primers in my rifles.

Try switching to Winchester LR primers. They are known to be more sensitive.

Although possible, it is unlikely that you have a bad lot of primers. Possibly contaminated?

 

[RobsTV]

Getting a hangfire in a 500 is not a fun thing to do. After 4 hangfires in one day with the 500 (couple other random 500 CCI hangfires in the past), no more CCI's for me.

Prior to this, have used a couple hundred from same batch, and couple thousand from other batches. Switched to WLR and all is good again. Plus the WLR has the advantage or burning a little hotter than the weak CCI primers did. Note, all CCI primers had proper firm impact marks. No light strikes from the 500.

With so many choices out there, and with CCI one of the leading primers known for rare hangfires and duds, (google to confirm), why mess with them? Federal would be another good choice if Winchester is not available.

 

[Arthury]

I called up CCI and they confirmed that a primer can do partial discharge.
And, the reason being the primer was not seated deep enough.

 

[Arthury]

Tested the latest batch and the variables that were changed:

• Switched from CCI LRP to Federal LRP
• Crimp increased
• Case flaring reduced significantly

Same Powder: H110
Powder strength: 40gr - 43gr
Bullet: Hornady XTP HP 350gr
Number of shots: 35
Discharge failures: zero

Conclusions:
Primer choice: CCI LRP may not yield consistent discharge for the 500SW, unless you pay extra attention in seating the primer deeply. No such issues with Federal LRP.
Cleanliness: when the cartridges are discharging correctly and optimally, there's hardly any soot and dirt left on the cylinder and chamber throat. Everything seem to be cleanly burnt off and there's only a thin layer of soot on the gun. What a nice feeling when things are going right.
43gr of H110 too hot: when I looked at the discharged primer cap, it looks a tiny bit flatter on its edge than the rest with lesser load. May be it is showing signs of a hot load. How far have you guys gone up using 350gr JHP?


All in all, I am very happy to have stepped onto the road of normalcy with the 500SW finally with lots of help from you all. Thanks very much for all the help!

 

[CGT80]

Let me see if I have this right. You are running h-110 powder with standard large rifle primers, NOT magnum?

I have seen in load books and also read from others that win 296/h-110 requires magnum primers and can fail to ignite completely with a standard primer. Just as you said, a hang fire.

I load 460 S&W with win 296 (it is the same as h-110), but only use mag large rifle primers. I am using #215 Federal primers. I haven't had any issues at all with my combo. I use standard rifle primers for a5477 and trail boss powder in the 460.

Maybe the winchester standard large rifle are just hot enough to ignite the 110. You said you used the same primers before. Maybe the temperature was different in the past. It is possible that you didn't seat the primers deep enough.

Also, I have heard that early 500 and 460 brass used large pistol primers and all the newer brass uses large rifle. Do you know the history of your brass?

I use a hornady 240 xtp mag bullet over 45-47 grains of win 296 and the federal large rifle mag primer. I seat and crimp to the canelure of the bullet. Hogdon says 45-49 grains for my load. Also, do not load less than the minimum listed for h-110. People say it can be from iffy to bad if you go too light.

350 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H110 .500" 1.985" 39.0 1712 41,500 PSI 43.0 1877 50,600 PSI The above data is from hodgon's web site. Looks like you are at max load already.

I have heard that flat primers on 500 or 460 is quite normal for full power loads. It seemed like my primers flattened at least slightly on even my light trail boss loads. Some people say trail boss gives low velocity, but still reaches high pressures.

I have chronographed my loads. My load at 45 grains, ran at 1932 fps and hogdon's data shows it should be 2084 fps. It seems common to be a little lower than the books.

 

[WrongWay]

Why are you using Large Rifle primers? I just checked Hodgdon and Winchester loading data, and no mention was given to use rifle primers.

Large rifle primers are designed to take increased primer strikes from a rifle firing pin. A revolver doesn't have that much force on the hammer when falling.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I called up CCI and they confirmed that a primer can do partial discharge.
And, the reason being the primer was not seated deep enough.

So like we discussed on THR it really isn't the CCI primers that failed, it was improper seating that caused the failure. Hey, we all can make a mistake but we shouldn't blame a primer for our mistakes.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why are you using Large Rifle primers? I just checked Hodgdon and Winchester loading data, and no mention was given to use rifle primers.

Large rifle primers are designed to take increased primer strikes from a rifle firing pin. A revolver doesn't have that much force on the hammer when falling.

Just my 2 cents.

I just looked on the Hodgdon load data site and all their 500 S&W Magnum data was developed with Winchester LR primers.

CGT80,
I think your a little confused about primers and what's recommended. When using W296/H110 it's highly recommended you use a magnum PISTOL primer but Hodgdon also developed their 500 Magnum data with a Winchester standard LRP. A standard rifle primer is as hot or hotter than a magnum pistol primer. There is no need for a magnum rifle primer...

 

[Arthury]

I just looked on the Hodgdon load data site and all their 500 S&W Magnum data was developed with Winchester LR primers.
[...]

I looked at the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center but did not see what primers they were using. Where exactly did you find out about them using Winchester LRP? Thanks!

 

[CGT80]

I just looked on the Hodgdon load data site and all their 500 S&W Magnum data was developed with Winchester LR primers.

CGT80,
I think your a little confused about primers and what's recommended. When using W296/H110 it's highly recommended you use a magnum PISTOL primer but Hodgdon also developed their 500 Magnum data with a Winchester standard LRP. A standard rifle primer is as hot or hotter than a magnum pistol primer. There is no need for a magnum rifle primer...

You might be right about using the standard large rifle primer. I looked at hodgon's data, but it doesn't list primers on their web site. A quick google search showed some debate on this topic. I check one of my other data sources, but it doesn't mention magnum primers. I will keep my eye out for additional data. Thanks for the heads up, I hadn't considered that LR might be hot enough.

 

[Jeff423]

I looked at the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center but did not see what primers they were using. Where exactly did you find out about them using Winchester LRP? Thanks!

In my paper Hodgdon Basic Reloader's Manual (2007) it does show Winchester LR primers. The Hornady 7th. and Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook 3rd. also say WLR primers.

Jeff

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I looked at the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center but did not see what primers they were using. Where exactly did you find out about them using Winchester LRP? Thanks!

At the top right of the page hit the "Print" button which will bring up another page. Then cancel the print job which leaves you the printable page which supplies the primer type, case brand and barrel length they used in the test data. They even list the twist rate of the barrel there.

 

[Arthury]

Got it. Thanks very much.

They should have listed those on the HTML page as well, not just the printed page.

 

[CGT80]

At the top right of the page hit the "Print" button which will bring up another page. Then cancel the print job which leaves you the printable page which supplies the primer type, case brand and barrel length they used in the test data. They even list the twist rate of the barrel there.

I just looked up 460 and 500 data on the web site. 460 is listed with Winchester LRM for both Win 296 and Trail Boss powders. I knew I read magnum primers somewhere.

500 S&W is listed with Winchester LR primers for 296 and Trail Boss. I stand corrected for this thread, based on this data.

45 colt with h110 (ruger, tc, only load)calls for winchester LP. Not magnum.

44 mag loads are listed for use with Remington 2 1/2. Google shows it is a Large Pistol.

454 is listed with SR not mag.

357 is listed with SPM

44 auto mag is listed with large pistol mag.

Looks like mag vs. standard with 296/110 isn't as clear cut as I thought.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It is as clear cut but over the past few years those who put the load data together are getting lazy. They use a Magnum primer for all powders used in a "magnum" caliber and a standard primer for everything else, no matter which powder they are loading. You listed a few in your post, very confusing, no?

45 colt with h110 (ruger, tc, only load)calls for winchester LP. Not magnum.

As for the .45 Colt load using H110 not listing a Magnum primer, not so. Winchester makes only one large pistol primer which is rated for both standard and magnum applications so it is a magnum strength primer.

 

[CGT80]

That makes more sense. I wondered if hodgon was playing it safe or taking the easy route. I forgot about winchester large pistol also working for magnum loads. It would be great if hodgon had better data. We don't all use winchester primers, but I guess they can't list and be responsible for all types of primers we use.