CCW Questions...

[Capt.Jim]

Few questions;

- The biggest concern between the newbie CCW permit holders is when to draw. I mean how to determine it is time to draw. Too early, you're in doo doo land. Too late??? You are lying in your own doo doo... I hear this over and over...

For example, this happened to me years ago (I wasn't armed at the moment). The guy waiting in line in front of me at a Wells Fargo Bank pulled a gun and rob the bank...

He didn't rob me or anybody else. Just threaten the teller and when he got his money he quickly exited the bank.

If I had my CCW and if I was armed at that moment is it convenient time to draw or just let him rob the bank since he is not a direct threat to my life?

How am I supposed to determine that this guy won't turn around and start shooting towards the crowd behind him where I am standing up front..
Or how am I supposed to guess that he won't shoot the teller girl.
If he does, it will be too late for me to draw...
If he doesn't fire to anybody but if i draw and shoot the guy then will I be blamed with overreacting and using excessive and unnecessary deadly force?
Where is that thin line?


Second question: (Brandishing gun)

What if someone on a dark alley pulled a knife and demanded your wallet etc.
What is the correct procedure after drawing your gun....
a) tell him to get lost,
b) tell him to drop the knife and lay down on the floor before you call 911
c) Give him your wallet, watch and cash and wish him a good day.
d) start screaming and run as fast as you can towards the opposite direction...

?????????

 

[The Big D]

You need a lot of training.

You obviously need a great deal of education regarding "when" to use a gun.

Please consider enrolling in a class where you can get the training/knowledge you need.

Be safe.

 

[Roadtrash]

I can't answer all your questions but I can tell you one thing that my instructor told our class. Never pull your gun unless you're going to use it and when you do pull it don't hesitate to use it. Now this is only when your life is in danger of course and not just because some one is yelling and carrying on.

For sure there are times when you need to back away and try to talk down the situation. I don't know about all states but here in AZ we were told that brandishing the gun or even showing that you are carrying in these situations can be considered simple assault.

Like someone else already said get some good training and ask a lot of questions your instructor will be glad to help you.

 

[Capt.Jim]

Thanks for the advice.

As a condition of the CCW I will be taking a class.
But no matter what they teach you at any class, my question is, how do you apply what you heard at a class to a real life situation.
No matter what scenarios you've been told at a class there is no way they can give the instructions for every scenario in life.

I was in NATO forces as a sniper and served during Desert Storm.
My SAS Commando Basic training was 3 month long and 10-12hrs a day for 6 days a week.
Trust me during the Desert Storm there was at least hundreds of instances where I had to decide on my own and instances had nothing to do with the training I received earlier.
Nobody mentioned during training what should I do in those conditions.
The upside of it, there was not much of repercussion as it will be on our civilian life and we were much free to think and decide what's best for our (and our fellow soldiers) safety.

I didn't have to consider the negative consequences of brandishing my gun or didn't worry about getting arrested after firing my gun.
When you're more free in your own decision making, it's much easier to determine what to do for your own good.

That's why my question is NOT what is the right thing to do but instead what is the practical way to determine in a split second if the situation will be justified by law or not.

That's why I am wondering.

What is your method of evaluating the scenarios evolving around you?

That's what I wanted to know..

Thanks,

 

[aguablanco]

Those are the exact questions that will need to be answered in someting under one second, if the time comes. The truth is it is not proper to draw your weapon unless the legal consequences are less significant than the immediate physical threat to you life. There are significantly less scenarios where a gun is the right decision as opposed to talking, retreating or trying some other way to defuse the situation. I have the advantage of a fair number of hours of training to help me make these decisions, I strongly suggest you do the same if you're sure you want to be an armed citizen.
RichH

 

[Capt.Jim]

One more thing to add....

I know it is common thing to say " Only draw if you're going to fire" during a training is a repeated phrase to emphasize the seriousness of this action.

But in real life most of the time you do NOT need to shoot the person caused you to draw or even fire a warning shot...

Most of the time brandishing a gun will stop the perpetrator/s on their track and stop the trouble even before it begins.

Sometimes just to put your hand on your gun over your hip (at 4 o'clock position) and yelling a command like "STOP" or "DON'T MOVE" is enough to end the bad situation against a perpetrator or two with knives, baseball bats or simply with thug-ish attitude.

So yes, DRAW is a serious action to consider but it doesn't have to end with emptying your magazine in every time you refer to that action.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Quite often you will hear people speak of "software" as in what goes on between the ears. Too many focus on the hardware.

Probably the most important thing is situational awareness and preparation. Don't be the guy that's gets caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. If for some reason you do get caught in that situation be flexible enough to react/act.

Distance and movement is also your friend. Move away if you can. Find cover or concealment. Think and act on your feet. Buy yourself some time.

Scenarios and what if's can and have been discussed on many a gun forum. It's useless. A good gun, holster, quality training, and practice together with the right mind set, situational awareness, and flexibility will allow you to overcome most situations IF you think quick enough.

Going through "what if" situations are a good way to prepare while you are actually in the place where it could happen.

For example, if I walk into a bank, I look through the doors and windows to see what happening. As I enter I look around some more. As I wait in line I watch as many people as I can. And I ask myself "what if" a guy walks in with a gun? "What if the guy in front of me produces a gun? Where is the closest cover? Will it stop a bullet?

I ask myself those same questions everywhere I go. And the last thing I will do is draw on a drawn gun. I will run to cover if I can hoping that if he shoots, he will miss.

 

[DigiRebel]

I highly recommend this book:

Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (9780936279008): Massad F. Ayoob: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51886MD5PDL.@@AMEPARAM@@51886MD5PDL

There are a lot of questions that need to be answered and to be honest they are all the type of thing that *CAN'T* be answered well in a forum online. There are too many variables to give you an accurate answer. Additionally, your state laws (especially your state) change the playing field enough that anyone who's not knowledgeable in state laws could set you seriously wrong.

 

[BaaBaa]

Too bad the Ayoob book is out of stock and only available as a print version if you can even find one. I've requested it be available as a kindle book.

So far I've read the Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry, The cornered Cat: A Woman's Guide to Concealed Carry and 7 Things You Must Know Before You Draw Your Gun - What You Must Know Before You Carry Concealed. All useful in different ways. I read those as part of making my decision to consider carrying full time.

 

[OKFC05]

As an instructor for OK carry classes and personal defense classes, I get asked this question a lot, so pardon me if I strongly recommend you take a class from a professional in YOUR STATE because state laws vary widely, and you risk losing or ruining your life if you do not know the law where you are standing. You also need to take professional training on how to handle your gun and execute the action if you decide to act. You have 5 choices when confronted with lethal force, and it takes skill to employ all but these two: freeze and surrender.

While it is fun and entertaining to play "what if" scenarios, I assure you that any real situation you face will be different than you imagined, close, and fast. You have to learn the principles and apply them in seconds in real time, making a decision that will change your life forever. You also will not learn all you need to know in any state-mandated carry class.

 

[Poodle Soup]

I go over the first scenario all the time.

The second one... You pull a weapon your going to use it. Its not my fault that you brought a knife to a gun fight. If you see the target advancing towards you with a knife its time to draw if you cannot safely get away, and turning your back on a knife wielding loon is not safe in my opinion. And no warning shots... ever. The gun pointing at them is the warning, the bullets are for stopping the threat.

 

[Old cop]

On 1/31 I posted "Glad I Had My 442" in this section. While I don't suggest that others do as I did it may give you some guidance. The "Gravest Extreme" is a must-read IMHO for those new to CCW.

 

[Travis15R]

Good questions, I just signed up for a CCW class today and will be taking it March 22. I have a lot of these same questions myself so I'll be sure to ask a lot as well.

 

[SMSgt]

To start with, you need to review your state's laws on firearms and use of deadly/lethal force. And seeing as you're in CA, good luck with that.

In FL, if I were behind an armed bank robber pointing a gun at a teller, I'd be entirely legal to put a bullet in the back of his skull. Would I? I don't know, it depends on what else is going on. Most bank robbers only want in and out with no trouble, but I don't know if this one is that guy.

As for the guy with the knife, if he's moving toward me, he's shot. If he's standing there with a surprised look on his face, he gets ordered to the ground. Where it goes from there is entirely up to him--his call.

 

[GLV]

Capt. Jim, get some training--Ayoob's basic lecture class would be of great benefit to you.

 

[cracker57]

Capt. Jim
as others have stated never a warning shot ever.

 

[walkin' trails]

I can't say that there's any text book answer in what you described, yet volumes can be written in the aftermath. Ask any cop who's ever been 4 1/2 pounds into a five pound trigger in a deadly force scenario but didn't didn't cap the threat and instead took him down and locked him up without further incident. There are common sense approaches to everything, and being armed does not mean you have to react to the situation with a gun. I strongly concur with those who have recommended you seek some good training above and beyond the CCW class. Massad Ayoob probably offers one of the best in his Lethal Force Institute curriculum.

 

[Houdini1953]

In the case of the guy robbing the bank unless he actually fired his weapon even into the ceiling or pointed his weapon at others present besides the teller then you should try to remain calm but be prepared to draw your weapon, unless you actually have the guy pointing his weapon at you or someone nearby then you are not in immediate danger, but once he starts pointing at or even firing his weapon then all bets are off and you should try your best to take the guy out!

You must feel there is the imminent threat of great bodily injury to yourself and or those around you, then you would be perfectly justified in shooting the perp!

 

[MP22]

Don't try to be John Wayne....odds are...you will never have too. Don't be looking for a reason to draw!