CFE Pistol

[kcode]

With all of the talk of my favorites W231 and HP38 disappearing in the near future, I thought I would try something new. I finally got my hands on some CFE Pistol. CFE 223 has been available around here for sometime but no Pistol.

Got invited to a private club by a friend, thought it would be a perfect time to try some new loads. Have not shot the 686 for a while so I worked up a few .357 with 125 gr XTP. My favorite load is 19.8 gr of W296 with mag primers. I had some cases ready so I used 8.0 gr of CFE Pistol, based on Hodgdons Annual Manual as max. Somewhere I had read that the CFE doesn't rely on case fill for ignition. 8.0 gr is not much in the case. I could not check bullet speed, just basing it on felt recoil. Comparing it to W296 loads, they were very light. Accuracy at 25 yards was about the same. At the 100 yd hanging steel plate, both loads made it ring. My 686 is a 6" with 2x scope.

I also took some 9mm 115 gr jhp loaded with 5.3, 5.5, 5.7, and 5.9 gr of CFE Pistol all shot out of my 3913. My pet loads are 4.5 gr of W231. All four test loads were equivalent on accuracy at 20 yd. The 5.9 loads did have a noticable more felt recoil.

One thing I did notice on both calibers is that CFE Pistol is very dirty. A bunch of residue on the cases and the barrels. Almost like shooting Herco.

 

[Bkreutz]

CFE Pistol is dirty at reduced power loads. As you get closer to the top of the range it cleans up considerably. I suspect what's happening is that it has to reach a certain pressure threshold to burn completely. I use 5.2gr with a 124 grain bullet in 9mm.

 

[427mach1]

One thing I did notice on both calibers is that CFE Pistol is very dirty. A bunch of residue on the cases and the barrels. Almost like shooting Herco.

Strange, I've heard CFE Pistol described as "just like Unique only cleaner". If there is residue on the outside of the case, you aren't building enough pressure to get a good seal between the brass and chamber, thereby allowing the gases to escape to the rear.

 

[Nemo288]

The anti copper fouling additives, which go back near the beginnings of smokeless powder,
have always left a little more residue as they don't, strictly speaking, "burn" at all.
These are various metal salts that are suppose to alloy with the copper as it is being deposited
on the barrel to make it more brittle and blow away on the next shot.
Having a component that doesn't really burn also creates more solids going up
the barrel at high speed and this can scrub the bore some.
Most powder gets "dirtier" as the pressure is reduced below it's particular optimum.
You should see what a rifle bore looks like after touching off a (large) case full of way too
slow powder in an attempt to fill up the case and maybe at the same time create a slower velocity.
Nitro Express rifle folks run into this quite a lot.
I have read of some pouring out the unburned powder before opening the rifle so it doesn't get inside the works.
Now THAT'S dirty.

 

[Alk8944]

"A bunch of residue on the cases...."

You will get his with any powder if you are loading to such low pressures the cases will not obturate (seal). If you have reached the velocity that you want then go to a faster burning powder.

DIRTY!!!! So what! Aren't you going to clean the gun after shooting it? Or are you one of the nubes that thinks if you shoot only "Clean" ammunition that you won't have to clean the gun? This is the only reason I can see why so many people are so concerned that their powders are "dirty"!

 

[venomballistics]

"A bunch of residue on the cases...."

You will get his with any powder if you are loading to such low pressures the cases will not obturate (seal). If you have reached the velocity that you want then go to a faster burning powder.

DIRTY!!!! So what! Aren't you going to clean the gun after shooting it? Or are you one of the nubes that thinks if you shoot only "Clean" ammunition that you won't have to clean the gun? This is the only reason I can see why so many people are so concerned that their powders are "dirty"!

Your going about this all wrong man ...
we need to get together and invent the self cleaning gun, because theres no way it'll be solved with powder

but seriously ... to the OP.
You can load with economy in mind, as one might with bullseye and similar burn rates, and have cleaner ammo.
Or, you can slow down your rates and use more powder to greater ballistic effect, but, more powder means more byproduct.
Personally I am not interested in how many rounds I get out of a pound. I always maintain a utilitarian view of guns.
I never load any bunny puff plinking ammo.
Each resulting load has an off range role.
While anything can make holes in paper, not everything is suited for putting food on the table or getting you though a gunfight victoriously.

This gives me two distinct advantages.
first, the odds of a double charge is nil due to my loading density.
second, in the clutch, you can grab anything that feels like ammo blindfolded, and expect it to do the job you need it to do.
The clean burn low recoil target ammo folks cannot claim this.

It's just worth two extra passes of a cleaning rod to me.

 

[Nevada Ed]

CFE pistol powder worked well in my 38 and better in the 357 magnum with the 125gt XTP bullet.

In my 3 and 3.5" 9mm's it did not get to +P fps but it did have good accuracy mostly dropping down to target loads, with a 115gr plated.
However as mentioned, starting loads or below are very dirty but will work the action of my pistols.

It is close to w231 and you should be happy with it if you don't want full power loads.

 

[kcode]

"A bunch of residue on the cases...."

You will get his with any powder if you are loading to such low pressures the cases will not obturate (seal). If you have reached the velocity that you want then go to a faster burning powder.

DIRTY!!!! So what! Aren't you going to clean the gun after shooting it? Or are you one of the nubes that thinks if you shoot only "Clean" ammunition that you won't have to clean the gun? This is the only reason I can see why so many people are so concerned that their powders are "dirty"!

I don't think I qualify as a nube, been hand loading for 35 years, back when you bought Bulls Eye in cardboard containers. This is my first experience with CFE Pistol and unknown territory. Just my observations since I have not seen much on CFE Pistol printed.

 

[Alk8944]

If you have been loading for 35 years then I find it odd you are making an issue of "Dirty"! Typical nube question.

 

[JBnTx]

With all of the talk of my favorites W231 and HP38 disappearing in the near future...

All that talk came from just one or two posters who plastered multiple websites with false information. It took off from there.

HP38/231 isn't disappearing anytime soon.

 

[Clovishound]

Well, I'm switching over to plated bullets. I'm tired of scrubbing lead off the frame of my model 10, and am afraid of leading up the 20" barrel of my new Henry. I have a decent amount of HP38 on hand, but have been unhappy with the accuracy. I had some CFE pistol I bought a while back. I tried it, and low and behold, I get much better accuracy with both my model 10, and .357 in the Henry. I'm looking to buying an 8 lb jug one of the local firms carries.

I find CFE loads to be snappier than HP38. Of course, it looks like Hogdgon is very conservative with their HP38 data.

 

[Nevada Ed]

kcode;

if you do a "9mm test" search.........
on page 9 3/28/2015 and
on page 8 4/17/2015
I have results and pictures of CFE loads on paper.

a few of the 86 test loads in the 3.5" pistol.

 

[Big Stick]

So far from what I have seen with "published" data, everything in .38, .40, .357 on Hogdons site is pretty warm. I have backed off about 20% with my .40 loads using 155 Berrys and found a very nice, soft recoil load to use in my Glock 23 and Shield .40 for target work.

 

[venomballistics]

Well, I'm switching over to plated bullets. I'm tired of scrubbing lead off the frame of my model 10, and am afraid of leading up the 20" barrel of my new Henry. I have a decent amount of HP38 on hand, but have been unhappy with the accuracy. I had some CFE pistol I bought a while back. I tried it, and low and behold, I get much better accuracy with both my model 10, and .357 in the Henry. I'm looking to buying an 8 lb jug one of the local firms carries.

I find CFE loads to be snappier than HP38. Of course, it looks like Hogdgon is very conservative with their HP38 data.

Loading for the Henry ....
I cast and load for one. I could wax poetic about it.
If you cast, you will want to get into powder coating. The rifles 20 inches of barrel makes it hard to stay below the typical 1200 fps many of the plated offerings flake out at.
I have tried and tested powder coating to some ridiculous velocities. It's a great fit for the big boy.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

One thing I did notice on both calibers is that CFE Pistol is very dirty. A bunch of residue on the cases and the barrels.

I agree. I decided to try some CFE-P, a while back, when I gave up on finding any Unique, as it seemed fairly close, speed wise. I also tried some HP-38.

On Hodgdon's site, as it turns out, CFE-P & HP-38 have near identical loading data for a .357 Mag 158gr XTP. I tried loads ranging from mid 25K - low 30K psi, hardly light loads, with Xtreme plated bullets, & noticed this too. The cases too get blackened. (HP-38 had more flash than CFE-P with the same charge weight also.)

I've been using Longshot for a while & have noticed the same with it. Being a slower powder I use it more in larger cartridges & lately have tried it in reduced 500 Mag loads with 350gr Berry's. With loads around 40K psi the cases have black burn marks on the outside that require way more time to tumble clean that other powders.

Just my observation on a few spherical/ball powders vs. the flake & extruded powders I use more frequently.

.

 

[AveragEd]

I'm certainly no "nube" to handloading, having been at it for over 40 years, but I see nothing wrong with using a cleaner powder if it works as well as a dirtier one. I don't care if it requires using more per shell, it's worth it not to have my gun and hands covered with a sticky black coating. Running a cleaning rod through a bore a few extra times has nothing to do with it.

I also cannot see much point in handloading super high velocity ammo unless one is expecting to go to war in the not-too-distant future. After all, it doesn't take much terminal energy to put holes in paper and I'll wager that is how many of us use our guns the most. Now if you are competing in an event that requires a certain power level, mild loads might not cut it. Otherwise, all those heavy loads will take a toll on any gun sooner or later and when you develop arthritis in your joints, you'll appreciate milder fodder, too.

When I carry a handgun hunting, I use factory ammo. It's not that I don't trust my handloads as I use them exclusively in my rifles - it just isn't worth my time to change my progressive handgun loader over to assemble one box of shells that will last me years, given the number of those rounds I expend preparing for and during each hunting season.

But that's why they make all those wonderful powders and bullets and I'm glad they do.

Ed

 

[Clovishound]

Loading for the Henry ....
I cast and load for one. I could wax poetic about it.
If you cast, you will want to get into powder coating. The rifles 20 inches of barrel makes it hard to stay below the typical 1200 fps many of the plated offerings flake out at.
I have tried and tested powder coating to some ridiculous velocities. It's a great fit for the big boy.

I did some casting during the great shortage. I don't particularly enjoy the process. Money saved isn't enough to get me into it.

I heard one report that coated weren't very accurate in his Henry. I know, one bad report doesn't mean much. Prices I have seen for coated aren't that much different than plated.

I chronographed the start loads for CFE pistol using lead data and the Xtreme plated 158 grain in .357. They came out to right at 1000 fps. Haven't had an opportunity to chrony them, but haven't seen any delamination signs up to near max, which should be just under 1200 fps, as I guesstimate.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Way back I posted a picture of what a case looks like from a 3" Kahr with a light load of CFE powder.

A 124gr RN plated with just 4.9grs of powder worked the action but the cases were very dirty.
The cases cleaned up with a touch more powder at a fps of 937.

It acts just like Unique.... the more you use the better from a medium loading up, in my short 9's.

Almost a twin brother to w321 in my 6" 357 magnum testing.
I did not use light target loads with CFE in the long case.

 

[venomballistics]

I did some casting during the great shortage. I don't particularly enjoy the process. Money saved isn't enough to get me into it.

I heard one report that coated weren't very accurate in his Henry. I know, one bad report doesn't mean much. Prices I have seen for coated aren't that much different than plated.

I chronographed the start loads for CFE pistol using lead data and the Xtreme plated 158 grain in .357. They came out to right at 1000 fps. Haven't had an opportunity to chrony them, but haven't seen any delamination signs up to near max, which should be just under 1200 fps, as I guesstimate.

I load mine for full smoke with 2400 or 4227 behind a powder coated 170G SWCHP.
I'm a good bit above 1200FPS in either case and have no issues to report.
In a rifle, 357 at any level is like a reloadable 22 LR to shoot.
In my particular specimen, it is possessed of accuracy to eclipse my best 22 LR past and present.

I can understand where your coming from with casting to a degree.
When taken from ingot to ammo, its a laborious journey.
If separated from the full reloading process ... its not so bad.

 

[sellersm]

Glad to hear your report, kcode! I've been happy with CFE Pistol in my .45acp loads using 200gr plated (Rocky Mountain Reloading bullets).

I'm about to start using it in my .357 loads, so glad to hear about your accuracy with it.

Dirty cases? That's what tumblers are for...