Cheating with AR15 Optics...?

[JaPes]

Why doesn't that apply to the AR15 itself? Put a crappy buffer tube on your $400 build and drop it and see if it is as good as a Colt, FN or Daniel Defense. Cheap rails don't hold up as well as quality rails like BCM or Aero. Triggers don't even get me started on triggers. Why is it just optics? Your answer IMHO applies to rifles as well. Clearly YMMV

It does. I never said it didn't. The topic of discussion is optics and I stayed on track. If we stray into the topic of individual AR-15 parts durability/quality v.s. price, then there will be sudden acute onset of gluteal discomfort amongst many here. I really don't want to go down that road.

I think you are giving bad advice when you assuming that other people have the same intent an purpose for their rifle that you have for yours. I also think you are setting up strawman and misrepresenting what people say about inexpensive optics like PA and Vortex.

First of all you can think whatever you want. I never assume that other people have the same intent with their rifle. I even stated so in my post.

I'm not saying that PA and Vortex are bad optics. They will never be as good as.

 

[hdwhit]

Does everyone need high end optics?

No.

My Savage Axis bolt action rifle (in .223) came with no sights at all. I added a Weaver rail to the top of the receiver and a $30 red dot that I got from CDNN Investments, a liquidator of gun parts and accessories.

So far, that cheap red dot has allowed me to repeatedly put a bullet in the side of a milk jug at 200 yards; which approximates the vital area of the local white tail deer.

I will probably shoot ten to twenty rounds a year through the gun hunting and keeping up my skills and at my age, I expect to be shooting for about an other 20 years. If that red dot lasts 200 to 400 rounds, it will have done everything I asked of it - and more. If not, then I will not mourn wasting $30 and will go get a more expensive sight.

I know this had to do with a bold gun and not an AR, but I have another of those $30 red dots for my AR that I plan to install in place of the auxiliary iron sights that came with the gun.

 

[Rastoff]

I have to agree. Bottom line is a good set of iron sights and knowing how to properly use them (not to mention a MUCH better field of view over any optic). No dead batteries to contend with or any parts that can fail due to mechanical failure or unintentional abuse.

...

Optics beyond iron sights, are nothing more than a luxury for the most part.

I used to think like you, then I got older.

You see I can no longer use the ghost ring and post iron sights on my rifle. My eyes are such that the rear ring is so blurry, I can barely make out the outline of it. For 50 yards and closer, I can hit a man sized target with them. However, for more precision or longer shots, I need some kind of optic.

This is one reason I finally went to the ACOG. It requires no battery and has a little magnification. Using the Binden Aiming Concept (BAC) it has a much broader field of view than you might think.


About expense, Phil and I have gone rounds over this one a few times. Here we go again...

I don't subscribe to the idea that a cheap optic is fine for just plinking. My theory goes like this: I want to have fun while shooting. If my optic is giving me trouble, I'm not having fun. So, spend enough to ensure your optic is going to work for your particular activity.

I've owned cheap optics. I've spent as little as $30. To date, every el-cheapo optic has been a disappointment. They either don't hold zero or quit working altogether. Some are just terrible and aiming because of mediocre glass or reticles. This is truly a case of you don't know until you've OWNED a decent optic.

Now there are cheap optics and there are not so cheap optics. I've had very good service from my Primary Arms Advanced Microdot. It can be had for $170. I would highly recommend this over the TRS-25 even though it's $100 more.

Phil will tell you that mid-range optics are a waste of money. That if you're going to spend mid-range money, just save up for the high end optic. I don't agree. I find the mid-range optics far better than the el-cheapo stuff and yet good enough to put up with some serious use.

I think we all agree, if your life depends on it, second best isn't the right tool. Even so, there is no need to say the absolute top is the only way to go.

An Elcan is probably the best of the battle scopes. They run $2k if you can find a deal. An ACOG is every bit as tough and has every bit as good glass, as far as I can tell, for a lot less. A used ACOG can be found for less than $1K if you look. So, I think you can get a good optic, that will take real punishment, without trading in your car.

 

[Hotshot9]

I have a New Ar 15 T Sport II. Had it a couple weeks or so. I picked up a cheap TRU GLO red dot from bass pro for about $100.00 or so. Now this is my first AR and first time using a red dot optic. I must say I followed the instructions on the red dot set up and have no issues at this point after running about 400 rounds in two different sessions. In the 2nd session my son and another friend shot it using the red dot and we all shot very well with it. We also used the battle sites that came with the rifle and sot pretty good too. now I'm not sure if I did the right thing but I can not complain about my purchase of the TRU GLO red dot. And definitely can not complain about buying the S&W SPORT II...BTW.. the first time shooting it was from a bench with a rest. The second time was in a gravel pit all standing. And shooting anywhere from 30yrds to 100 yrds .

 

[BAM-BAM]

I used to think like you, then I got older.

You see I can no longer use the ghost ring and post iron sights on my rifle. My eyes are such that the rear ring is so blurry, I can barely make out the outline of it. For 50 yards and closer, I can hit a man sized target with them. However, for more precision or longer shots, I need some kind of optic.










Now there are cheap optics and there are not so cheap optics. I've had very good service from my Primary Arms Advanced Microdot. It can be had for $170. I would highly recommend this over the TRS-25 even though it's $100 more.


.

I stated in an earlier post that I've used the TRS-25 for about 10 years on my Beretta Pistol caliber 9mm carbines...... w/ good results shooting out to about 75yds .....mostly 50 yds max (home range limit)...... rapid fire fist size groups.

What are the advantages of the Primary Arms Microdot?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

You are creating a strawman argument and misrepresenting my thoughts and positions in order to prove your point.

I am asking is a PA or Vortex dot good enough for basic home defense in a home environment?

For starters, to offer 'advice' about optics (that's your OP bottom line) it would be helpful to have at least a basic understanding of the most fundamental operations on what's being lectured. Your post misrepresented the Sparc AR on the points you chose to illustrate. Pretending or otherwise mischaracterizing an optic to be that which it is not is at the heart of the issue.

Of course a person may use whatever they like. However, if they ask for advice on choosing an optic that will be relied upon in life and death situations my suggestions don't include Primary Arms or Vortex red dots for those purposes. I've offered my reasons for this more than once.

To your question, my answer is....... no. Here is a recent example.

OP

I need an optic for my M&P 15 Sport 2. I use it for target/plinking, HD, and SHTF if that ever happens. Currently I don't shoot past 25 yards due to the limits of my local range. What type of optic would be best? From what I've read online I'm thinking a red dot makes the most sense based on my current use. Does this sound right? Or would a scope be better? Also what red dot would you recommend around $200 or less. Open to any opinions! Thanks!

My Reply

For a recreational red dot I'd suggest considering the Bushnell TRS-25 or the Primary Arms MicroDot. Both are under $100 and have quite good reputations for recreational use.

Once you start thinking about HD and SHTF, then you're talking about a rifle that has a different role than recreation. There really isn't a cheap optic in the $200 range that I would consider worthy.

Aimpoint makes what they call a ACO for a bit under $400 and a PRO for a bit over $400. Solid optics worthy of consideration. Then there's Aimpoint models for $600 and above.

My opinion is that there isn't much between the the sub $100 and the $400+. Some guys pay $200 for a Vortex but I don't think you're getting much more for the money over the sub $100 optics mentioned above other than a warranty.

-------> Vortex advertises the Sparc AR to meet the needs of a "Duty rifle". Do you agree with that?

 

[coolcobramatt]

I bought two Vortex scopes for my Sport II and 15-22. I was going to get an entry level Crossfire (great reviews) but saw the Diamondback (step up) with a $40 rebate so I grabbed it. Gander Mountain price matched Cabelas, who at the time had the 2-7 on sale for 130, so I ended up with that scope for under $100.

While looking I spent a little more and bought the Strike Eagle 1-6 for my AR. Another price match at $249.

I wanted a higher dollar Aimpoint or Eotech but did I really need to invest that much in safe queens? My ego wanted that badass red dot, but my wallet said no. I think for the prices I paid, I did get a quality scope for each of my applications. I can always get my money back out of them as well.

 

[Maddmax]

I used to think like you, then I got older.

You see I can no longer use the ghost ring and post iron sights on my rifle. My eyes are such that the rear ring is so blurry, I can barely make out the outline of it. For 50 yards and closer, I can hit a man sized target with them. However, for more precision or longer shots, I need some kind of optic.

An ACOG is every bit as tough and has every bit as good glass, as far as I can tell, for a lot less. A used ACOG can be found for less than $1K if you look. So, I think you can get a good optic, that will take real punishment, without trading in your car.

I'm by no means a "spring chicken" when it comes to age. I'm happily retired. I had new lenses put in both eyes a few years back after cataract surgery and when the Doctor asked if I wanted distance or close up vision, I opted for distance. I can read normal size print fine, small print I get out the cheaters. So iron sights aren't a problem for me and I can still keep em' all in the black at 300 yards.. Good iron sights are my (fail safe) bottom line on any weapon scoped or not. Also how and what I use teaching beginners.

Nothing against scopes. I (too), do believe you get what you pay for. Especially shooting long range. Long range (300+ yards), I prefer a higher caliber. That's what will really set some "junk" lower/mid range scopes apart from the higher end ones and the harder "beating" they get from the harder recoil.

When it comes to quality, price doesn't bother me too bad. Just need to shop around and do some good ol' fashion horse trading. Not really into buying used when it comes to anything weapon related unless I really know the person. I prefer a good warrantee and product support if there are issues or problems.

Would I put an ACOG on my entry level Sport, T, or Ruger? No. But it does look nice and works great on my DDM4 V7. )

 

[Rastoff]

What are the advantages of the Primary Arms Microdot?

The main advantages are durability and battery life. The 50K hour battery life makes it a decent enough self-defense optic. You don't want to fumble with anything when your life is potentially on the line. So, a sight that's always on is a good thing.

Another thing is the Primary Arms customer service. They are as good as any company I've ever worked with.

I can still keep em' all in the black at 300 yards.

You're a better shot than I am. I can keep them in the black at 300 yards, but from a rest and with a magnified optic. I've only tried 300 yards with irons once. Let's just say the paper wasn't scared.