I've got my eye on this retro model:
A set of spinner mags and some port-a-walls and that things a show stopper!
Chevrolet Volt to get 230 MPG ?????
- Thread starter oldRoger
- Start date
A set of spinner mags and some port-a-walls and that things a show stopper!
BigRich315
Member
Just plug in a giant sunlamp and fan, problem solved!!
I'll resort to something with 4 legs before a Volt.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
Its not a bad looking ride:
I hope they sell like crazy.
I hope they sell like crazy.
Spotteddog
Member
Yup,
All they need to perfect now, is the ability of the thing to haul a long enough extension cord coiled up on it's roof? That one's in beta testing currently.
All they need to perfect now, is the ability of the thing to haul a long enough extension cord coiled up on it's roof? That one's in beta testing currently.
FirebirdV8
Member
The Volt really isn't that new of an idea either. GM spent millions of dollars and almost 10 years trying to copy the way a diesel/electric locomotive works. The funny part is that they aren't even using a diesel generator, which would be more efficient, in the car.
BigRich315
Member
That's kind of the point: they spent so much time and money on this car, which ran the price up so high, and many people don't expect them to sell. It's based on a technology that, though still viable, is becoming outdated by new advances. This is exactly why they went bankrupt.
Two interesting aspects of this isn't being discussed much here or by advocates from Government Motors.
The vehicle requires to be recharged from the grid for normal use and maximum economy. The electrical grid in many parts of the country is already stretched to it's limit and enviro-nazi's are not allowing new facilities to be built. What happens when millions of these vehicles are sold and plugged into the over taxed grids? Interesting in that markets where this vehicles will have the most appeal, like California, are the same States with the most overtaxed electrical grids and the most active and politically entrenched enviro-nazis.
Furthermore, what do States & the Fed do when millions of these vehicles are put on the road and gasoline sales taxes plummet?
The vehicle requires to be recharged from the grid for normal use and maximum economy. The electrical grid in many parts of the country is already stretched to it's limit and enviro-nazi's are not allowing new facilities to be built. What happens when millions of these vehicles are sold and plugged into the over taxed grids? Interesting in that markets where this vehicles will have the most appeal, like California, are the same States with the most overtaxed electrical grids and the most active and politically entrenched enviro-nazis.
Furthermore, what do States & the Fed do when millions of these vehicles are put on the road and gasoline sales taxes plummet?
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Spotteddog
Member
See posting #5 on the first page.
Your entirely correct. Part of the specialty of these loon's is their seeming inability to grasp physical realities. Therein, their magical thinking on the enviro-kiddie-cars being practical. One could also postulate that part of their reptilian fear of firearms has a great deal to do with their lack of understanding of how the physical world works as well. Bet you all know more than one, who thinks a gun can go off while just sitting on a table?
Your entirely correct. Part of the specialty of these loon's is their seeming inability to grasp physical realities. Therein, their magical thinking on the enviro-kiddie-cars being practical. One could also postulate that part of their reptilian fear of firearms has a great deal to do with their lack of understanding of how the physical world works as well. Bet you all know more than one, who thinks a gun can go off while just sitting on a table?
I have the SAE Technical Paper (2008-01-0458) which the Chevy site says describes the propulsion system. It an interesting paper but it really is mostly environmental moonshine and very little that tells exactly how works. For example; last night my wife heard some GM VP say it's a Diesel generator hybrid. Given the extra wt. and cost, that seems unlikely, the gas engine at a steady load and speed driving a generator is quite efficient. Granted the Diesel would be more efficient the disadvantages in the small sized engines have always kept engineers away.
Certainly the paper does not include any details about enlarging the power grid.
Regrettably the places where an electric commuter car might be useful just happen to be large congested cities where the power grid is the most overloaded.
I have always wondered how people parking on the street would plug in an electric car, fascinating!
Somehow this plan never seems to come together. Anyone who is interested in this fascinating subject can go here;
Early Electric
By the way the industry has been looking for a battery that would go more than 40 miles per charge since about 1910. The promise is always "next year".
Certainly the paper does not include any details about enlarging the power grid.
Regrettably the places where an electric commuter car might be useful just happen to be large congested cities where the power grid is the most overloaded.
I have always wondered how people parking on the street would plug in an electric car, fascinating!
Somehow this plan never seems to come together. Anyone who is interested in this fascinating subject can go here;
Early Electric
By the way the industry has been looking for a battery that would go more than 40 miles per charge since about 1910. The promise is always "next year".
m1gunner
US Veteran
Within a generation there will be a combo transponder/gps tied into your car's computer that reports daily mileage driven. Your credit card will be automaticaly charged the road tax for the miles you drove. CC over the limit, your car won't start.
Several states are really pushing this now, and the technology and hardware already exists.
I learned in the first grade that anytime you convert one kind of energy to another kind of energy you lose energy. Why would anybody think it is more efficient to convert gasoline to electricity to run a car? But then again the government is not trying to be efficient. Larry
You do achieve some savings with a sophisticated hybrid like the Prius, The hybrid overcomes some of the greatest inefficiencies in the gas engine/auto duty cycle. However the cost, weight, and complexity make it uneconomic. A small diesel, like most European cars is much better IMO. Always assuming you are trying to wring the last bit of efficiency out.
gunsmith11
Member
I am not an engineer, but why can't small alternaters be attached to the wheels, to generate electiricity to recharge the batteries while driving, I know there is more weight, more drag, but it seems to me like it would be perpetual motion
model10
Member
Elce cars
Dont knok the moonshine cheap clean an easy to make been arond for years
Dont knok the moonshine cheap clean an easy to make been arond for years
USAF385
US Veteran
My next auto will be a Nissan Leaf.
..... maybe
..... maybe
scooter123
Member
Actually, I expect that 230 mpg figure is based on equivalent kilowatt hours of consumption. Today's electric motors generally operate in the range of 93 to 96% thermodynamic efficiency. Modern high tech gasoline engines running at peak efficiency operate at about 35% thermodynamic efficiency at the highest, the Prius generally peaks around 32 to 33% on gasoline. Gasoline engines that are not operating at the peak efficiency point (read common automotive engines running at less that 3/4 throttle) operate at 15 to 23% efficiency, when idling the efficiency can drop into the single digits.
So, take a small car that could net 35 mpg on normal gasoline power, double that by operating the engine at peak efficiency, and then multiply it by 96/33 (the difference between electric and galoline efficiency) and you have 207 mpg. Throw in the power regained by regenerative braking, and that 230 mpg equivalent is not only within reason, it's probably accurate. However, that number only applies when the car is running purely on a stored charge acquired over the grid and it neglects the transmission losses between the powerplant and the charging station. Those losses are not insignificant. In real NET terms, the Volt may only yield about 140 mpg equivalence and it will be even less for coal fired or oil fired power generation, which introduce another layer of efficiency losses.
One plus for the Volt is that it will provide very good economy even when it's running on the gasoline. The engine in the Volt is reported to be designed as a constant speed, constant power engine. This means that when it's needed it will always be operated at the peak point of efficiency, the excess power produced will go to charging the battery and when the battery hits full charge, the gasoline engine will turn off and the car will run on battery power for the next 30 or 40 miles. Hopefully, GM will have the gasoline engine well muffled, otherwise that engine turning on and off on a long trip could get a bit annoying.
As for why it's not a diesel/electic hybrid, the reason for that is pretty simple. Diesel engines are not at all clean when cold and they can be a real fuel hog when constantly being started and shut off. Diesels need to be at operating temperature before they really get efficient. In addition, a constant speed, direct injected, gasoline engine can approach the efficiency of a diesel and may someday exceed it if a reliable plasma ignition is ever developed. However, I'll bet there are some lab rats playing around with propane supplemented diesels that just might lick the cold diesel issues so we may someday see a diesel/electic hybrid on the market.
Point of all this is that it's likely that we will see gasoline cars in the next 10 years that net over 50 mpg on the highway at a steady 70 mph cruise. In operation they will behave more like a locomotive than a traditional gasoline powertrain but 50 mpg is nothing to sneeze at. If the Feds would relax the safety requirements and allow a 1200 to 1400 lbs. peanut car to be built, 70 mpg might be possible. As for that 230 mpg claim, it's a bit hyped. In regards to the pure charge at the battery versus efficiency it's probably true, however that figure does neglect all of the downstream losses involved in getting the power to the battery.
So, take a small car that could net 35 mpg on normal gasoline power, double that by operating the engine at peak efficiency, and then multiply it by 96/33 (the difference between electric and galoline efficiency) and you have 207 mpg. Throw in the power regained by regenerative braking, and that 230 mpg equivalent is not only within reason, it's probably accurate. However, that number only applies when the car is running purely on a stored charge acquired over the grid and it neglects the transmission losses between the powerplant and the charging station. Those losses are not insignificant. In real NET terms, the Volt may only yield about 140 mpg equivalence and it will be even less for coal fired or oil fired power generation, which introduce another layer of efficiency losses.
One plus for the Volt is that it will provide very good economy even when it's running on the gasoline. The engine in the Volt is reported to be designed as a constant speed, constant power engine. This means that when it's needed it will always be operated at the peak point of efficiency, the excess power produced will go to charging the battery and when the battery hits full charge, the gasoline engine will turn off and the car will run on battery power for the next 30 or 40 miles. Hopefully, GM will have the gasoline engine well muffled, otherwise that engine turning on and off on a long trip could get a bit annoying.
As for why it's not a diesel/electic hybrid, the reason for that is pretty simple. Diesel engines are not at all clean when cold and they can be a real fuel hog when constantly being started and shut off. Diesels need to be at operating temperature before they really get efficient. In addition, a constant speed, direct injected, gasoline engine can approach the efficiency of a diesel and may someday exceed it if a reliable plasma ignition is ever developed. However, I'll bet there are some lab rats playing around with propane supplemented diesels that just might lick the cold diesel issues so we may someday see a diesel/electic hybrid on the market.
Point of all this is that it's likely that we will see gasoline cars in the next 10 years that net over 50 mpg on the highway at a steady 70 mph cruise. In operation they will behave more like a locomotive than a traditional gasoline powertrain but 50 mpg is nothing to sneeze at. If the Feds would relax the safety requirements and allow a 1200 to 1400 lbs. peanut car to be built, 70 mpg might be possible. As for that 230 mpg claim, it's a bit hyped. In regards to the pure charge at the battery versus efficiency it's probably true, however that figure does neglect all of the downstream losses involved in getting the power to the battery.
BarbC
Member
I saw something on TV the other day about using the braking friction to recharge the battery.
Has anyone do the math to calculate how much your electric bill will go up when plugging it in every night??
Lets say you are lucky enough that all your driving/commuting is within the 40 mile range. You would just be using electric. I watch my electric meter spin now with the A/C on. What will haven if I plug this sucker in??
Dr. Emmett Brown: Oh, my God, they found me, I don't know how, but they found me. Run for it Marty.
Marty McFly: Who? Who?
Dr. Emmett Brown: Who do you think? The Libyans.
Marty McFly: Holy ****!
Dr. Emmett Brown: [the DeLorean has just made the first time-jump] Ah! What did I tell you? 88 miles per hour! The temporal displacement occurred exactly 1:20am and zero seconds!
Marty McFly: Ah, (delete), Doc, you disintegrated Einstein!
Dr. Emmett Brown: Calm down, Marty, I didn't disintegrate anything. The molecular structure of both Einstein and the car are completely intact.
Marty McFly: Then where the hell *are* they?
Dr. Emmett Brown: The appropriate question is, "*When* the hell are they?" You see, Einstein has just become the world's first time-traveler! I sent him into the future. One minute into the future to be exact. And at precisely 1:21am and zero seconds, we shall catch up with him and the time machine.
Younger Dr. Emmett Brown: [running out of the room] 1.21 gigawatts? 1.21 gigawatts? Great Scott!
Marty McFly: [following] What-what the hell is a gigawatt?
Lets say you are lucky enough that all your driving/commuting is within the 40 mile range. You would just be using electric. I watch my electric meter spin now with the A/C on. What will haven if I plug this sucker in??
Dr. Emmett Brown: Oh, my God, they found me, I don't know how, but they found me. Run for it Marty.
Marty McFly: Who? Who?
Dr. Emmett Brown: Who do you think? The Libyans.
Marty McFly: Holy ****!
Dr. Emmett Brown: [the DeLorean has just made the first time-jump] Ah! What did I tell you? 88 miles per hour! The temporal displacement occurred exactly 1:20am and zero seconds!
Marty McFly: Ah, (delete), Doc, you disintegrated Einstein!
Dr. Emmett Brown: Calm down, Marty, I didn't disintegrate anything. The molecular structure of both Einstein and the car are completely intact.
Marty McFly: Then where the hell *are* they?
Dr. Emmett Brown: The appropriate question is, "*When* the hell are they?" You see, Einstein has just become the world's first time-traveler! I sent him into the future. One minute into the future to be exact. And at precisely 1:21am and zero seconds, we shall catch up with him and the time machine.
Younger Dr. Emmett Brown: [running out of the room] 1.21 gigawatts? 1.21 gigawatts? Great Scott!
Marty McFly: [following] What-what the hell is a gigawatt?
Reality Bites!
Gunsmith11 it would be necessary to disconnect the drive train when braking to do what you suggest. So the electric drive motor as in the hybrid is much simpler mechanically. The result is that the DC drive motor becomes a generator when slowing (regenerative braking). Naturally you don't want that to happen when you are coasting, and it's not too effective in a fast stop.
Scooter123 You would like to think so, but no, it seems the EPA is not figuring that any energy other than gasoline is used when calculating MPG figure.
In any event the energy needed to move a given mass through the EPA "Urban" cycle is known, and far exceeds any 230 equivalent in MPG. This particular brand of moonshine is merely cost shifting----yes we save on gasoline and vehicle emissions, but at the expense of shifting those problems elsewhere. The Government is busy redistributing costs.
In mechanics, like medical care, no matter how much the POTUS decrees otherwise, there is no free lunch.
Gunsmith11 it would be necessary to disconnect the drive train when braking to do what you suggest. So the electric drive motor as in the hybrid is much simpler mechanically. The result is that the DC drive motor becomes a generator when slowing (regenerative braking). Naturally you don't want that to happen when you are coasting, and it's not too effective in a fast stop.
Scooter123 You would like to think so, but no, it seems the EPA is not figuring that any energy other than gasoline is used when calculating MPG figure.
In any event the energy needed to move a given mass through the EPA "Urban" cycle is known, and far exceeds any 230 equivalent in MPG. This particular brand of moonshine is merely cost shifting----yes we save on gasoline and vehicle emissions, but at the expense of shifting those problems elsewhere. The Government is busy redistributing costs.
In mechanics, like medical care, no matter how much the POTUS decrees otherwise, there is no free lunch.
scooter123
Member
Roger, if they are basing that 230 mpg figure on actual gasoline consumption during the dity driving cycle, someone is blowing smoke up everyones butt. Flat out, it's not possible for any 3000 lbs. plus automobile to yield 230 mpg on gasoline. Yeah, a 50cc, 200 lbs moped can hit this kind of economy but it requires a rider weighing in at around 100 lbs. and a top speed mid 20's.
