Hi, I love my classic Model 36 chrome snubby but it shoots low with ammo thats not 158 grain. I like the small fixed sight allows me to shoot tiny groups, but with modern bullets there doesnt seem to be a good load of 158 HPs that expands out of a snubby. From my research it's all Short Bore 135 gr Speer Gold Dot HPs (which I haven't been able to find YET) and winchester PDX1 130 grains. Is there ammo or a mod I could do to shorten the front site radius perhaps?
Chiefs Special Fixed Sight Model 36 Ammo Options?
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Pisgah
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First of all, while a good snubnose in the hands of a good shooter is certainly capable of some surprising long range accuracy, that type of shooting is not what they're designed for. Just about any snubnose will shoot a bit low with lighter bullets; it's a matter of physics determined by the bullet's dwell time in the barrel and motion in the shooter's hand during recoil. But I have never had a snub that shot so low that it would really make much difference in likely self-defense scenarios, or that the phenomenon couldn't be corrected for by simply aiming directly at the point of aim rather than with the "six o'clock" hold that we are typically trained to use. Six o'clock is fine with 158s; dead-on works well with most lighter bullets. And often a standard-velocity light bullet load, as opposed to a +P load, will hit just about dead on even with the six o'clock hold.
Secondly, despite the proliferation of quick-expansion bullets on the market, real-life expansion out of a short-barreled handgun is always something of a crapshoot; maybe it will, maybe it won't. Expansion can be nice, but it can also be a drawback as it almost guarantees less penetration. And even if that .357 bullet expands to .557, if it doesn't penetrate deep enough it's not worth a whole lot. A 158, whether a hollowpoint that fails to expand or even in a SWC configuration, is no slouch when it comes to doing the job. Whatever load you use, the "struck by the Hammer of Thor" effect we all would like to see is pretty much a myth, or at least a matter more of precise placement rather than bullet type.
Secondly, despite the proliferation of quick-expansion bullets on the market, real-life expansion out of a short-barreled handgun is always something of a crapshoot; maybe it will, maybe it won't. Expansion can be nice, but it can also be a drawback as it almost guarantees less penetration. And even if that .357 bullet expands to .557, if it doesn't penetrate deep enough it's not worth a whole lot. A 158, whether a hollowpoint that fails to expand or even in a SWC configuration, is no slouch when it comes to doing the job. Whatever load you use, the "struck by the Hammer of Thor" effect we all would like to see is pretty much a myth, or at least a matter more of precise placement rather than bullet type.
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lamarw
SWCA Member
I am a reloader so I can not help you very much with commercially available ammunition. I will say one of the best defensive rounds is the semi-wad cutter hollow point for longer barrel guns. For the short barrel like in your and my Chiefs Special (mine is a two inch), I prefer the solid vs. hollow point semi-wad cutter for defensive purposes. The shorter barrels produce lower velocity; therefore you will want more penetration vs. bullet expansion. If you are just punching paper for target practice, then there is no need for the hollow point bullets.
Just something to think about. The last box of .38 Special I bought new was a couple of years ago was Fiocchi having round nose bullets of 158 grain. Years ago when law enforcement was more revolver prone, they were not fans of the round nose bullets since they had a tendency to deflect off the bad guys skulls.
Just something to think about. The last box of .38 Special I bought new was a couple of years ago was Fiocchi having round nose bullets of 158 grain. Years ago when law enforcement was more revolver prone, they were not fans of the round nose bullets since they had a tendency to deflect off the bad guys skulls.
Vulcan Bob
Member
You could do a lot worse for the snubby than 148gr full wadcutters. They work a lot better than you might think!
I sometimes get students who have shot quite a bit on their own and come to a defense class wanting to show off their tiny groups.
In Personal Defense class, we throw out the bullseye targets, put up a "tombstone" plain target, do sight misalignments drills, and then timed "first good hit on target."
It usually sinks in that you're training to survive, not to shoot "a tiny group", taking all the time in the world to perfectly align the sights.
For those that either plan to "shoot them in the arm" or conversely "shoot them between the eyes", we have a reaction drill where the target moves toward the shooter from 7 yds, bouncing on the driven support wires. Many empty the gun and miss the whole target on the first try.
Then learning begins and we can get on to the COM firing.
In Personal Defense class, we throw out the bullseye targets, put up a "tombstone" plain target, do sight misalignments drills, and then timed "first good hit on target."
It usually sinks in that you're training to survive, not to shoot "a tiny group", taking all the time in the world to perfectly align the sights.
For those that either plan to "shoot them in the arm" or conversely "shoot them between the eyes", we have a reaction drill where the target moves toward the shooter from 7 yds, bouncing on the driven support wires. Many empty the gun and miss the whole target on the first try.
Then learning begins and we can get on to the COM firing.
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gwpercle
Member
Just a fact of life that they were factory regulated for the standard, of the time, 158 grain lead bullet, typically a round nose .
Don't be concerned about expansion, iffy at best from short barrel , 38 special velocity. Find a 158 grain lead SWC load, hollow point or solid , if you can shoot it well and it hits to your sights, you will be well armed.
Personally mine has 148 grain Target full wadcutter's in mine. It shoots to sights and I can make fast follow up shots and small groups.
Gary
Don't be concerned about expansion, iffy at best from short barrel , 38 special velocity. Find a 158 grain lead SWC load, hollow point or solid , if you can shoot it well and it hits to your sights, you will be well armed.
Personally mine has 148 grain Target full wadcutter's in mine. It shoots to sights and I can make fast follow up shots and small groups.
Gary
rockquarry
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J-frame guns are quite sensitive to the way they are held as far as point of impact vs. point of aim goes. With a firm two-handed hold, factory and factory equivalent 158-grain loads will shoot to the sights (or very close) at 25 yards. Using one hand (normally the way I shoot any handgun), they will shoot anywhere from 5"-8" high.
I don't shoot light bullets in a .38 Special, but for those who do, a single-handed hold may bring the point-of-impact to the desired point on a target.
All this probably varies slightly from shooter to shooter, but it may be worth a try. Shooting with one hand is a great way to become more proficient with a handgun anyway.
I don't shoot light bullets in a .38 Special, but for those who do, a single-handed hold may bring the point-of-impact to the desired point on a target.
All this probably varies slightly from shooter to shooter, but it may be worth a try. Shooting with one hand is a great way to become more proficient with a handgun anyway.
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You do not state HOW LOW and at what distances you are talking about. Most Snubby's are meant for close up and personal use.
As a LAST RESORT and if you can find no ammo to shoot to your liking, the front sight can be lowered with a file (obviously a permanent modification). By lowering the front sight you will be effectively raising the POI.
andyo5
Member
I just bought some Buffalo Bore 158g LSWC +P, on recommendation from Mas Ayoob. He believes that since JHP bullets are unlikely to expand when shot from a snubby, hard cast bullets would be a better choice.
Biggfoot44
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Solution #1 - Convince yourself your gun is primarily to be used at "close" distances AND hitting an inch or two low is still within two minutes of felon.
Solution.#2- Use 158+P lead HP.
Solution #3- File down front sight to give desired POI with desired light bullet ammo. Back during the Revolver Era this was not uncommonly done by armorers for Dept that issued the 110+P+ jhp ( aka Treasury Load, and for a time the second most prevailant duty ammo.)
Solution.#2- Use 158+P lead HP.
Solution #3- File down front sight to give desired POI with desired light bullet ammo. Back during the Revolver Era this was not uncommonly done by armorers for Dept that issued the 110+P+ jhp ( aka Treasury Load, and for a time the second most prevailant duty ammo.)
Dennis The B
US Veteran
Remington and Winchester still make the old "FBI" load, a 158gr LSWCHP +P load, and I keep my 640 loaded with them. At close range and the lower velocity, I don't expect much, if any expansion, but the idea is to make the BG sit down and reconsider his intent to get back the fight.
Ascension
Member
You guys might want to watch Underwood ammo for a release of the Lehigh Defense bullet in a .38 special.
These things are devastating and to see the .380 ultimate penetrator performance in particular in ballistic jell is just jaw dropping!!
You can find that on You Tube.
Check out the 9mm ultimate defender load in jell here on the Underwood site.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/xtreme-defender/
Totally new bullet design and the performance is no joke and flat shocking in ballistic jell!!!
info on this round.
This round offers:
A permanent wound cavity (PWC)that is 2 times greater than any expanding bullet
Reduced recoil.
CNC machined from solid copper to overcome barriers to penetration
Radial flutes that force the hydraulic energy inward to build pressure
Minimal surface area to increase the force at the point of contact and sharp cutting edges that defeat barriers
Check out the 10mm ultimate penetrator vs ballistic glass Youtube clip YIKES!!
These things are devastating and to see the .380 ultimate penetrator performance in particular in ballistic jell is just jaw dropping!!
You can find that on You Tube.
Check out the 9mm ultimate defender load in jell here on the Underwood site.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/xtreme-defender/
Totally new bullet design and the performance is no joke and flat shocking in ballistic jell!!!
info on this round.
This round offers:
A permanent wound cavity (PWC)that is 2 times greater than any expanding bullet
Reduced recoil.
CNC machined from solid copper to overcome barriers to penetration
Radial flutes that force the hydraulic energy inward to build pressure
Minimal surface area to increase the force at the point of contact and sharp cutting edges that defeat barriers
Check out the 10mm ultimate penetrator vs ballistic glass Youtube clip YIKES!!
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Doug M.
Member
As pointed out by most above, the sights on these revolvers are almost always regulated for the 158 grain, more or less standard velocity rounds. There is a reason for the advocacy by several of the 148 grain wadcutter - easy to shoot, clean square holes and likely adequate penetration if reasonably hard cast. Likewise a standard velocity all lead semi-wadcutter, similarly hard.
Expansion is iffy at snubby velocities with HP; most loads that are not unpleasant to shoot in a light revolver, and if you get it, penetration might not be adequate. Also, learn the proper places to aim (you should be able to find a decent explanation of this if you google "tactical anatomy"), and develop the ability to consistently put all 5 rounds in a circle no bigger than a paper plate within that target area. If you have human shaped and sized targets, center the pie plate on the body with the top edge about the clavicle notch for a crude but effective replica. (Older style targets put the scoring rings too low ... be careful not to train to that standard.)
Expansion is iffy at snubby velocities with HP; most loads that are not unpleasant to shoot in a light revolver, and if you get it, penetration might not be adequate. Also, learn the proper places to aim (you should be able to find a decent explanation of this if you google "tactical anatomy"), and develop the ability to consistently put all 5 rounds in a circle no bigger than a paper plate within that target area. If you have human shaped and sized targets, center the pie plate on the body with the top edge about the clavicle notch for a crude but effective replica. (Older style targets put the scoring rings too low ... be careful not to train to that standard.)
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