Chronograph Data for .500 Mag

[DonD]

I got some data on my 6.5" half lug Model 500 today shooting over an Oehler Model 35 chrono.

43 gr LilGun behind a 385 gr hard cast, gas checked Montana bullet, I got 1606 fps avg, 88 fps ES, 35 fps SD. Hodgdon's max for a 370gr slug is 44.5 gr Lil Gun

37gr of H4227 behind the same bullet, 1256 fps avg. That load is a nice one, makes a lot of fuss at the backstop and is easy on the joints.

11gr Trail Boss behind a 405 gr Tennessee Valley bullet, 773 fps avg, 25 fps ES, 11 fps SD.

Hope that is of interest to some of the forum. Don

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

It is of interest to me, though I don't own either a 460, or 500. I do have a .475 Linebaugh, and was using Lil'Gun regularly until I chatted on another forum with Bob Baker of F/A. He says they have tested Lil'Gun In several calibers, after cutting down and remounting the same barrel that had previously used H-110/296. They recut the forcing cone as well, and Lil'Gun is definately ruining throats, and forcing cones. It apperently burns much hotter than the other magnum powders. I quit using it immediately upon reading that, which is a shame, since it worked so well for me. I am not interested in ruining my barrel to save throwing an $18 pound of powder out.

 

[DonD]

I've heard that issue with Baker. I spoke with a senior ballistician at Hodgdon, he doesn't agree and suspects poor metallurgy in the test gun.

He says that Lil Gun doesn't have unusually high flame temps and doubts that it is causing forcing cone erosion. I've seen no evidence of it. Don

 

[grit]

Thanks for the info.

That 385gr load @ 1606fps sounds pretty stout...around 2200ft/lbs.

I use the 440gr WFNGC's primarily with Lil'gun & H110. No chrono data, but they blow right through a foot of cedar.

 

[7P's]

I've heard that issue with Baker. I spoke with a senior ballistician at Hodgdon, he doesn't agree and suspects poor metallurgy in the test gun.

He says that Lil Gun doesn't have unusually high flame temps and doubts that it is causing forcing cone erosion. I've seen no evidence of it. Don

I did the same Don and got the same answer but he couldn't explain why my barrel was much hotter firing 5 full house loads with Lil'Gun as oppossed to firing 5 full house loads using H110 or IMR 4227. I haven't noticed anything going wrong-yet-but I'm using very little of Lil'Gun just because of the greater degree of barrel heat. In the 500 Linebaugh Max - Lil'Gun really gets that barrel hot after 5 rounds and they weren't real heavy loads at that.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I like Hodgdon powders, and use lots of them regularly, but you can't expect one of their guys to admit something like that. Baker has tested several different caliber guns to make his determination. I asked him specifically about that. Several guys on that same forum say they have experienced the same thing, so I tend to believe them over Hodgdon. You can make up your own mind, but for me, I'll keep my F/A running good by avoiding now known issues like these, and I'll simply use H-110 instead.

 

[DonD]

I like Hodgdon powders, and use lots of them regularly, but you can't expect one of their guys to admit something like that. Baker has tested several different caliber guns to make his determination. I asked him specifically about that. Several guys on that same forum say they have experienced the same thing, so I tend to believe them over Hodgdon. You can make up your own mind, but for me, I'll keep my F/A running good by avoiding now known issues like these, and I'll simply use H-110 instead.

Being a wuss at heart when it comes to being prudent with reloading and particular when it comes to taking care of my firearms, I might drift away from Lil Gun to W296/H110 when the powder situation gets better. Whenever that happens. In the interim, I don't shoot that many max loads. Don

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I hear ya! I don't think you or anyone else is a wuss for being cautious including myself, but my gun cost me way too much to risk it. In my area, powder accessability has not been an issue at all, primers have. I can get any powder I want, for just about the exact same price as before all the crap hit the fan. I just need something to light it with other than a match.

 

[grit]

While we're on the subject...

How does S&W typically handle it, when someone sends in a gun with an eroded throat/forcing cone? Aren't they pretty good about replacement/repairs?

I would think that is just the reality of having a 500, no matter what powder one is using.

Regards.

 

[JD 500]

Wasn't the 500 marketed as the most powerful production revolver made ? Designed in conjunction with Cor-Bon ammo ?

That Cor-Bon (At least the 400 gr jacketed) is absolutely the most stout load that either of my 500's has seen. Far more power than my reloads are generating. I have a hard time believing I am going to do any more damage to the gun than those factory cor bon loads. I'd also be curious as to what powder Cor-Bon is using. I know when the 500 first came out, Lil Gun was the recommended powder.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Wasn't the 500 marketed as the most powerful production revolver made ? Designed in conjunction with Cor-Bon ammo ?

That Cor-Bon (At least the 400 gr jacketed) is absolutely the most stout load that either of my 500's has seen. Far more power than my reloads are generating. I have a hard time believing I am going to do any more damage to the gun than those factory cor bon loads. I'd also be curious as to what powder Cor-Bon is using. I know when the 500 first came out, Lil Gun was the recommended powder.

Most factory loads use non cannister powders, meaning powders that are not available to the public for their loads. This has been published in Handloader as well as other sources a few times.
Just because the factory loads were/are stout, doesn't mean that they are using a powder that can hurt your gun. Cor Bon makes excellent ammo, and I would be very suprised if they hadn't tested a lot of cannister, and non cannister powders before finaly making a choice for their factory loads.

Remember, Lil'Gun was designed expressly for the 410 shotgun. Handloaders discovered that it worked in magnum handgun rounds, and for a long time, Hodgdon didn't acknowledge it for, nor recommend any loads for handguns with it.

 

[JD 500]

... Remember, Lil'Gun was designed expressly for the 410 shotgun. Handloaders discovered that it worked in magnum handgun rounds, and for a long time, Hodgdon didn't acknowledge it for, nor recommend any loads for handguns with it.

I did not know that !
I got back into reloading when I bought my 500. I know Lil Gun was the reccomended powder from a couple sources (Local shops). I know the can says "shotgun powder". I didn't know it was designed for the 410, or that it had been out for a while. Luckily I don't have much and it isn't my favorite powder. I do like 4227 for the 500.

 

[DonD]

I an earlier post I alluded to being a wuss about being hard on my firearms. So...I found some H110 that I'll try with the .500. Price was good at Natchez but of course, had to pay the damned hazmat fee and high shipping. That resulted in an expensive 2# of powder. Sometimes you have to pay to play, right? May just use more of the Lil Gun in my .357 ammo.

Natchez was, like seemingly everyone else, out of primers. Don

 

[The Clever Set]

Grit: I talked to S&W when I was considering buying a 460V and the C.S. rep I talked to said in warranty, forcing cone erosion is generally fixed for free, plus the cost of shipping them the gun. He said that out of warranty repairs on the forcing cone are done for a nominal fee, basically the labor cost of doing it, plus shipping.

I ended up buying a 4 inch 500 mag, instead of the 460V because I couldn't justify paying as much for a used 460V as I could get a new 500 for.

I'd guess, and this is certainly an uneducated guess, that forcing cone erosion is actually less of a problem for most loads in the 500 than the 460, because the pressures are generally so much lower in the 500. Of course, your mileage may vary when throwing those 500, 600 or 700 grain bullets.

How does S&W typically handle it, when someone sends in a gun with an eroded throat/forcing cone? Aren't they pretty good about replacement/repairs?

I would think that is just the reality of having a 500, no matter what powder one is using.

Regards.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I'd guess, and this is certainly an uneducated guess, that forcing cone erosion is actually less of a problem for most loads in the 500 than the 460, because the pressures are generally so much lower in the 500.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

They are both entered into SAAMI at 65,000 PSI MAP.

Both will show wear to the forcing cone with near max, or max loads. Lil'Gun just seems to speed up the problem noticeably. I really like Lil'Gun, and was bummed to learn this problem existed.

 

[The Clever Set]

Notice I said with "most loads," not maximum SAAMI pressure loads.

I arrived at my conclusion because I looked at the Hodgdens loadings for the 500 S&W magnum listed on their reloading data page. The 52 loadings there range from 13,500 to 51,900 PSI. Note that there are no loadings listed with pressures above 52,000 PSI. This obviously isn't a comprehensive list, because none of the common 600 or 700 grain loads are listed.

The Hodgdon's data for the 460 magnum list loads ranging from 17,700 to 57,300 PSI, with 38 of the 58 loadings listed having pressures above 52,000 PSI.

So, I surmised that, for the Hodgdon's data, the 460 S&W Magnum is generally a higher pressure round than the 500 S&W Magnum.

Now, if you only load to maximum SAAMI pressures, then there is no difference in the two. But, I'd guess most folks keep their loads at something less than the SAAMI max.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

They are both entered into SAAMI at 65,000 PSI MAP.

Both will show wear to the forcing cone with near max, or max loads. Lil'Gun just seems to speed up the problem noticeably. I really like Lil'Gun, and was bummed to learn this problem existed.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Now, if you only load to maximum SAAMI pressures, then there is no difference in the two. But, I'd guess most folks keep their loads at something less than the SAAMI max.

I don't see where you state "most loads", but that doesn't really matter either. If you go by the loading manuals, you'll get something a little different form each of them, and for most calibers, not just these two. Most of the loads listed by owners for these two rounds here on the forum are running at, or near max, from those listed in various manuals. Most who buy a big magnum (myself included), don't buy them to run them at reduced velocity. If that was the case we'd buy something smaler in the first place and save ourselves all the added expense of extra loading components, gun cost etc.

 

[The Clever Set]

Well, then the 500 is still a lower pressure round, using the Hodgdon recommended loadings, because the highest pressure loading for the 500 mag. is 51,900 PSI vs. 57,300 for the 460 mag.

My point is that on average, for recommended loadings, the pressures generated in the 460 are greater than the pressures generated in the 500. There isn't any debate on this, if you take a look at the loading data. What might be up for debate is whether the lower pressures result in less forcing cone erosion.

I bought my 500 for it's potential to throw big, heavy bullets at high velocity. However, that doesn't mean I want to throw the heaviest bullets at the highest possible velocities every time I take it out to shoot. I much prefer reduced recoil loads most of the time. Not only do I find the lighter loads more enjoyable to shoot, I take some pleasure in knowing that I'm not beating my $1000 gun to pieces. I guess I must not be your average 500 magnum owner.

Most of the loads listed by owners for these two rounds here on the forum are running at, or near max, from those listed in various manuals. Most who buy a big magnum (myself included), don't buy them to run them at reduced velocity. If that was the case we'd buy something smaler in the first place and save ourselves all the added expense of extra loading components, gun cost etc.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Your point is still invalid. It doesn't matter what Hodgdon has listed. It does matter what the SAAMI spec ratings are. Just because Hodgdon doesn't run the 500 up to the firewall, doesn't mean they couldn't. Both are entered into SAAMI at the same maximum average pressure, which means that both can run at 65,000 PSI with appropriate loads. Therefore they run at the same pressures. By you logic, your 500 runs at less pressure than somebody else's 500 because you don't load it to full potential, and they do. That only holds true for the loads the two of you choose to shoot. It isn't an absolute for the round however, which can run at any safe pressure the 460 can.

 

[grit]

Thanks for the response

Grit: I talked to S&W when I was considering buying a 460V and the C.S. rep I talked to said in warranty, forcing cone erosion is generally fixed for free, plus the cost of shipping them the gun. He said that out of warranty repairs on the forcing cone are done for a nominal fee, basically the labor cost of doing it, plus shipping.

I ended up buying a 4 inch 500 mag, instead of the 460V because I couldn't justify paying as much for a used 460V as I could get a new 500 for.

I'd guess, and this is certainly an uneducated guess, that forcing cone erosion is actually less of a problem for most loads in the 500 than the 460, because the pressures are generally so much lower in the 500. Of course, your mileage may vary when throwing those 500, 600 or 700 grain bullets.

In my experience with both the 460 and 500, I noticed significant erosion at 300-400 rounds with my 460, while my 500 shows little sign after 900 rounds. Mostly max loads for both, factory ammo in the 460, mostly Lil'gun in the 500.