Clearing Jammed Revolvers - Mas AYOOB

[Marylander]

clearing squibs

Yes, after the drill, someone else came up with a range rod which I inserted down the barrel and bumped it against something hard and was able to push the lead swc back enough to open the cylinder.
Clearing your primary revolver under fire should probably be Plan B. A NY Reload (resorting to a back up gun) would be preferable in a gunfight.

Thanks for that...never dawned on me to try and push bullet back into brass,,,duh!!! Of course, if it dosen't move, big trouble...OK
back to normal ...thanks again

 

[Marshal Tom]

I have seen the loose ejector rod situation on at least two occasions, a squib more than once and high primers as well as dirt or degree under the ejector star. On two occasions, I saw a damaged firing pin bushing that was not seated where it was supposed to be. When fired, the primer backed out into the hole where the bushing is and hung up the revolver. In both cases, the bushing needed replacement and in one case the S&W could not be fixed because the hole for the bushing was elongated.That was my .357 Mtn Gun. I had purchased it a a very good price and had not fired it in the several years that I owned it. The first time to the range, this happened on each shot. I had to force the cylinder opened. It could not be repaired and had to have the frame replaced.

 

[flagman1776]

When I started around 1976, I could sign out a PD owned Victory model with 6 mismatched lead round nosed cartridges. It was so loose it rattled when shaken. It spit lead pretty badly.
We were supposed to be able to buy our own M66s through the PD. In the meanwhile, I carried my pristine M19 with hot 110 gr SuperVels. Life was good. They shot good for me.
I found a M66 brand new at the LGS and bought it. The first time I fired it, every one of the SuperVels primers flowed back around the firing pin, locking the hammer down until jiggled free. I found another load to carry after that. Our last revolver load was issued Silvertips.

Another thing I learned from matches... every round of duty ammo was chambered in the duty gun before carry... loaders too.

 

[Fastbolt]

I suppose I should mention how a bone dry aluminum yoke in some of the PD/Sc/Ti wheelguns might lend itself to a functioning problem.

One of our guys brought me his PD snub one morning at our range, complaining that he'd had to resort to turning the cylinder by hand to finish his qual course-of-fire because the trigger had become too hard to pull. Well, that ain't right.

I checked the snub and confirmed the DA trigger pull was horrendous and the cylinder couldn't be turned via trigger pull. I also opened the cylinder and found that the cylinder wouldn't spin. At all. It was very stiff to even turn by hand. (The trigger pull was fine without the cylinder closed and the hand not having to engage the ratchets.)

Removing the cylinder I noticed the yoke was very dirty and the two bearing surfaces were bone dry. I cleaned and re-lubricated the yoke and then reassembled the revolver. The cylinder spun easily and freely, as intended, and the DA trigger & cylinder carry-up was fine.

I showed the owner how to check for normal cylinder spin, and how to remove the cylinder to wipe the yoke barrel and add a couple drops to the yoke bearing surfaces if the cylinder started to feel sluggish. (I emphasized to him to avoid over-tightening the yoke screw, too, to avoid damaging the frame.)

Then I told him to go back downrange and either shoot the whole course-of-fire again, normally, or at least run a few cylinder loads through the snub to satisfy himself that he could stake his life on the gun running normally again (it was a secondary duty-weapon for him in his assignment).

FWIW, while I've not had this occur to my own J-frames that have steel yokes, I have found that the aluminum yokes in my pair of M&P 340's do seem to "dry out" sooner than my snubs that have steel yokes. The surface texture and finish of the aluminum yokes seem a bit less smooth than the steel ones, too.

I periodically check the ability of my cylinders to spin freely (cylinders open). If they start to seem as though they're slowing and not easily spinning freely as long as previously, I remove the cylinders and wipe down the yokes, and add a couple drops of lube to the yoke bearing surfaces, which always restores cylinder spin.

When I was working as a firearms instructor (before and after retirement) I was putting in a fair amount of frequent range work with my various snubs, especially my 642's and M&P 340's, and it was the aluminum yokes in the 340's that seemed to foul and lose lubrication - and the ability to freely & easily spin - sooner than in my 642's.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I read the posts. I understand many things but I am afraid the term "jam" is just too broad. But I'll go along with it just because I like the folks around this campfire.

About post #1: Copyright on the material posted belongs to whoever published it, NOT the author.

That is technically incorrect. If you create a written "piece" the copyright attaches to it immediately and it is yours. If your written item is published by someone other than yourself then either the publisher has its own copyright or you, the author, can transfer your rights to the publisher. See what Mas says:

The publisher, Harris Publications, went out of business a few years ago. I don't know who if anyone owns the rights to older articles there. During that period I only sold "first North American serial rights," which allowed me to retain the right to reprint.

Exactly. Mas transferred XYZ rights to the publisher but retained ABC rights. If the publisher is out of business, and if nobody bought their assets, then Mas would be the sole owner of the copyright again.

Fine with me. As to Harris, we often got requests to copy articles for training purposes, and the policy was to grant permission so long as nothing in the articles was changed or deleted, and credit was given to both publication and author. Distributing it as you did would have been fine. I would personally consider that policy still in effect.

Again, Mas is correct, except that legally he's probably the sole owner of the copyright at this point in time.

Specifically for this campfire - -

and credit was given to both publication and author.

That's more or less the policy of the S&W Forum except I doubt that the moderators are going to insist on double credits unless it's spectacularly obvious.

 

[Muss Muggins]

So, if I'm following this, you're explaining to an author, thru a third party, about the author's copyright, and disputing the author's interpretation? #AskingForAFriend

I read the posts. I understand many things but I am afraid the term "jam" is just too broad. But I'll go along with it just because I like the folks around this campfire.



That is technically incorrect. If you create a written "piece" the copyright attaches to it immediately and it is yours. If your written item is published by someone other than yourself then either the publisher has its own copyright or you, the author, can transfer your rights to the publisher. See what Mas says:



Exactly. Mas transferred XYZ rights to the publisher but retained ABC rights. If the publisher is out of business, and if nobody bought their assets, then Mas would be the sole owner of the copyright again.




Again, Mas is correct, except that legally he's probably the sole owner of the copyright at this point in time.

Specifically for this campfire - -


That's more or less the policy of the S&W Forum except I doubt that the moderators are going to insist on double credits unless it's spectacularly obvious.

 

[fredj338]

I paid significant personal funds to take a training program by nationally recognized trainers. I was using my duty gear. BUGs weren't allowed. The only thing my PD provided was practice ammo, 38swc reloads. On one drill, myself and my partner were to exit the "patrol unit" take cover on the drivers side and engage 2 hostiles on the passenger's side. My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder. I didn't carry a range rod. I don't even think I knew there was such a thing other than on a cleaning bench. There was nothing I could do except take cover.
Both myself and my partner were judged "dead". Since I couldn't engage, it was presumed my perp had gone around the front of the car to outflank us.
I have never had a squib with any ammo before or since. I immediately added a suitable brass rod to my key chain. I also carried a BUG.
Lesson Learned.

Though squibs disable any handgun. You wont have time to clear it with a range rod.

 

[fredj338]

How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.

Seriously? Bullet jumps the crimp & ties up the cyl. Primer backs out & ties up the cyl. Grit gets between forcing cone & cyl, ties up cyl. During a reload a spent case falls under the ejector. All pretty much puts you out of a fight. Then there are things that break or bend.
AlSo anything that gets between cyl & lock during rotation is jambed up revo. Though that one might be cleared by just opening the cyl, maybe.

 

[Execpro]

fredj338. You left out ejector rod lose (can't open cylinder), brass expanding from heated cylinder and won't eject. I'm sure there are others, but these are two more I've seen at State and Fed Requals. Just adding some more items to your already great list. Just Sayen !

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!

 

[fatcat3]

If you never had a revo jam, I would say you dont shoot a whole lot.

And I would say B.S. We used to carry revolvers at my Dept ( wish we still did) I used to shoot IHMSA back when I used to have free time, I still hunt with a revolver when I get the time, and have been shooting them a lot for 40 years. I have had ONE jam with a revolver. The ejector rod backed out on an old 1917 S&W. a little fingernail polish and tightening fixed that. Bottom feeders are 100% better than they where 30-40 years ago, still there is more moving parts so more that can go wrong. So to make up this deficiency the auto crowd seems to have to point and cry O.M.G. at each and every possible revolver malfunction. As a side note I know of a Makarov and at least 2 Glocks all with 3-4 thousand rounds through em with nary a hiccup.

 

[TTSH]

How would you fix a jammed revolver in a Self-Defense situation?

To be honest, this article seems a bit silly.

With all due respect to Massad Ayoob, whom I deeply respect and follow online (and who has forgotten more about self-defense than I will ever know), the article is silly. The article may be fine for the range, but not for the middle of an active gun fight. Only one good point comes out of the article: Make damn sure ahead of time that your revolver will not jam... or else.

 

[RoyM52]

For other than LEO , who no longer carry revolvers, There is very little to no time to clear any firearm at the time and distance that a true self defense situation happens.

 

[Execpro]

I think this was a great thread! Forgetting the article mentioned above, there were a lot of good comments. Just about everything that can go wrong with a revolver was mentioned including broken parts (which you can't fix in a self defense gunfight).
The thing to remember is that the vast majority of people who own revolvers think that if you put ammo in the gun and pull the trigger,it will go bang every time and will never have an issue with reloading.
Most everyone on this forum know of these potential problems and maintain/check their guns & ammo regularly.

I'm of the opinion that no one was being critical or slamming revolvers.
I have been shooting revolvers for over 50 years without ever having one jamming on my personal guns, but on my duty weapon, have had casings go under the ejector or swell in the cylinder and only come out part way requiring manually pulling it out by hand at State and Fed requals. It may have only happened 2 or 3 times over a dozen years, but it does happen.

I never heard about bullets moving forward in the casing due to recoil in a light J frame or checking primers that stuck out to far before joining here.There are other things I learned because of this and other forums.
Keep the comments/threads/post coming!!

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!

 

[fredj338]

For other than LEO , who no longer carry revolvers, There is very little to no time to clear any firearm at the time and distance that a true self defense situation happens.

A lot depends on distance. If you have time tomreliad, you have time to clear most semi malfs. A revo generally needs ahop time to get up & running again. So while slightly more reliable, when they do fail, & they do, its a club. Which really sucks if your attacker has a gun.

 

[fredj338]

And I would say B.S. We used to carry revolvers at my Dept ( wish we still did) I used to shoot IHMSA back when I used to have free time, I still hunt with a revolver when I get the time, and have been shooting them a lot for 40 years. I have had ONE jam with a revolver. The ejector rod backed out on an old 1917 S&W. a little fingernail polish and tightening fixed that. Bottom feeders are 100% better than they where 30-40 years ago, still there is more moving parts so more that can go wrong. So to make up this deficiency the auto crowd seems to have to point and cry O.M.G. at each and every possible revolver malfunction. As a side note I know of a Makarov and at least 2 Glocks all with 3-4 thousand rounds through em with nary a hiccup.

Well first, you had a jam so not bs. I have been shooting for a bit longer than you, all kinds of revo, all kinds of co,petition & hunting. If anyone tells me they never had a failure then I can only say they arent putting a lot of rds downrange. I can fix a type 3 in a semi in 3-4sec. A jamb in a revo is game over.

 

[smithman 10]

Interesting thread but...

Being a little older I don't shoot as much competition as I used to and I was never particularly good at the various games, but I enjoyed them.

Bullseye, PPC, IDPA were what I did. Still do a little PPC in a modified club match (no 50 yard stage).

What I will say is this: While shooting the above I saw scores of malfunctions with semi-auto pistols. And very few with revolvers.

Granted, particularly in IDPA the semi-auto pistols greatly outnumbered the revolvers, so naturally there were many more opportunities for malfunctions.

That being said, I trust a revolver over a semi to work when the chips are down. And as a civilian, that means basically one cylinder full in most cases.

I'm sure a new, well maintained Glock 19 is most unlikely to fail, but I put my faith in this Model 60 for the time being. Or its big brother, a K-frame Model 13. I practice with these regularly, clean them when I'm done and use factory ammo.

I can't remember when I last had a problem with either of them, other than with my sometimes deficient marksmanship!

 

[Fastbolt]

Want to maximize the potential for normal functioning of a DA revolver?

Learn to run a DA trigger without short-stroking it and compromising trigger recovery.

Inspect each cartridge before loading it into the revolver, looking for manufacturing defects like high primers, improperly sized or mangled cases & case mouths (crimp), bullets seated too deeply or not deeply enough, etc.

Practice proper cleaning practices of the revolver, and especially confirm the cylinder spins freely; the charge holes are clean; no debris has gathered under the extractor star; and the ejector rod hasn't become loose.

In other words, work to mitigate potential problems that might be related to the shooter's operation of the revolver, or inattention on the part of the shooter.

Did I mention not short-stroking the DA trigger's recovery?

 

[Mister X]

A lot depends on distance. If you have time tomreliad, you have time to clear most semi malfs. A revo generally needs ahop time to get up & running again. So while slightly more reliable, when they do fail, & they do, its a club. Which really sucks if your attacker has a gun.

And the specific situation matters as well. There are numerous videos online showing people successful clearing sim gun malfunctions during FOF training at close-quarters, in the clinch, on the ground and even fighting inside the confines of a vehicle. Not easy to do and possibly extremely problematic in many real world defense scenarios, but it's not necessarily the automatic death sentence as many make it out to be.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Good stuff. I personally have never had a clean revolver in good working order jam in 58 years of shooting. The fastest solution is to draw another revolver. My normal carry guns are two K-Frames, one 4" Model 65-1, one 2" Model 12-2.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

 

[ISCS Yoda]

So, if I'm following this, you're explaining to an author, thru a third party, about the author's copyright, and disputing the author's interpretation? #AskingForAFriend

As a follow up, and please remember that not everyone on here is a lawyer but everyone on here is a shooter, the copyright rules are fairly simple. So, unless Cajun Lawyer or any other lawyer on here wants to dispute my legal opinion, here goes:

Item 1. If you write something, the copyright is yours.

Item 2. If you are hired to write something the article is a "work for hire" and the copyright would ordinarily belong to the buyer, not the author.

Item 3. If you sell something that you write, ordinarily the copyright transfers to the buyer, unless you make other arrangements.

Item 4. If you sell something that you have written, like an article sold to a magazine, and the publisher agrees that the copyright did not transfer, then under normal circumstances a publisher should note that fact, as in "The copyrights to this article belong to the author".

Item 5. If you give an article to a magazine for publication you can certainly request that the publisher lets you retain the copyright. That occurs here and there in certain types of publications where readers "contribute" but do not sell their work. It happened just this past month in the Texas State Rifle Association's magazine and they made it perfectly clear that the author retained the copyright.

Item 6. If you sell an article and retain limited copyrights, like USA only, or similar, then the copyrights are owned by you for that purpose or "place" but the buyer owns the copyrights for every other "place".

Item 7. This is the only tricky item. If you sell an article to a magazine and it goes out of business and there is no successor entity and you did not retain a copyright interest I have to presume (I am not going to do the research for this but I know whom to ask so I'll get back to y'all on this) that all of the defunct magazine's articles are in the public domain. I don't think that reversionary copyright interests exist. But I shall find out. In the present case, if the author retained North American copyrights then he still owns that and the article is not in the public domain.

If you think that I was disputing Massad Ayoob's understanding of his copyright interests please tell me where I did that because I do not think that that happened.