Close, fast and dirty vs distance, time and clean

[Kiwi cop]

I shoot mainly IPSC with about two speed steel matches and the same number of cowboy matches a year.

To my way of thinking there are three types of shooting stages. Close, fast and dirty, distance, time and clean and intermediate.

The fast close and dirty stages are owned by the run and gun shooters. Targets are usually under 10 meters distance and speed will always be an advantage, but if you’re like me and will never match their speed, better gun skills will be an advantage. I was reminded of this last weekend when 19 A’s and a single C on a 20 round stage saw me third in the stage rankings with several speed freaks who shot mainly ‘C’s on the 8 paper targets below me.

The distance, time and clean stages usually run from 15 to 30 meters, but I have seen targets out to 45 meters at our Island and National events. Unless you are very fast and willing to take penalties by leaving some of the further targets standing, gun skills can give us slower shooters a bit of an advantage. But the “I must hit this target before I can move on” way of thinking still prevails. I have seen fast shooters empty a whole 1911 mag and still not hit the far targets losing time as well as points.

I once allocated two rounds each to three plates staggered at 40 and 45 meters. I was using a borrowed Colt Series 70 as my Springfield had broken down at an earlier stage and I did not know where it would shoot at the longer distances with my ammo. I dropped the first plate on the second shot. The 45 meter plate did not drop after two rounds. Knowing I had budgeted two rounds per plate and two rounds on a much closer paper target before reloading, with a round left in the chamber, I made the instant call to fire a third shot and reload from slide lock. The third round sent the plate tumbling while the second 40 meter plated dropped at the first shot putting me “back on budget”.

Then there are the intermediate stages with targets from 10 to 25 meters away. For these you need both speed and accuracy.

I enjoy shooting the fast and dirty stages, as I recalled last Saturday, but take some pride in hitting targets further out that others leave standing. And I also enjoy coming up with some unconventional way to shoot the stage. On Saturday’s stage there were three single targets hard to the right around a wall out to 5 meters and two double targets hard to the left out to 4 meters. It was possible to shoot two handed around both sides but quite tight for someone like me who is not a “fit lean machine”. I decided to shoot strong and weak hand only starting on the right. It also meant I did not have to open a door hinged on the right with my gun in my right hand where it could either be hit by the door or I could cross the muzzle while pulling on the handle.

After shooting weak handed I used my left index finger to drop the mag while moving to the door. With the door safely open I changed the gun back to my right hand and used my left to reload while moving down range to the next bank of targets.

And that single C? It was the 5 meter target on the right side of the wall.

So what are your stage preferences?

 

[Bkreutz]

Most USPSA stages I see are 90% inside 25 yards(meters). I don't have a preference because I feel thankful that I can still get out and shoot. Last March I was lying in a hospital bed recovering from quadruple bypass surgery, wondering if I would ever be able to shoot again. I made a goal of shooting our state championship match. Last weekend was our state match and I placed in the bottom half of the competitors, but I got the same points total as the top 5% of the shooters (just a lot slower) I also acted as Chief Range Officer on a stage so it was a 3 day event for me. I'm sore and tired, but feel good. Don't know if I'll ever get the speed back but it really doesn't matter as long as I can get out and shoot. It was fun watching all the shooters going through my stage, it was a short, 12 round stage but there were a bunch of different ways to shoot it. What I observed was the fast guys were fast and the rest weren't. One of these years I'd like to visit NZ, but my years are running out, maybe though.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Use to shoot USPSA with a "old"friend who could only walk..... no running......but shot all A's.

You do what you can!!

 

[Kiwi cop]

Most USPSA stages I see are 90% inside 25 yards(meters). I don't have a preference because I feel thankful that I can still get out and shoot. Last March I was lying in a hospital bed recovering from quadruple bypass surgery, wondering if I would ever be able to shoot again. I made a goal of shooting our state championship match. Last weekend was our state match and I placed in the bottom half of the competitors, but I got the same points total as the top 5% of the shooters (just a lot slower) I also acted as Chief Range Officer on a stage so it was a 3 day event for me. I'm sore and tired, but feel good. Don't know if I'll ever get the speed back but it really doesn't matter as long as I can get out and shoot. It was fun watching all the shooters going through my stage, it was a short, 12 round stage but there were a bunch of different ways to shoot it. What I observed was the fast guys were fast and the rest weren't. One of these years I'd like to visit NZ, but my years are running out, maybe though.

Great to see that you are recovering to the point to being able to shoot competitively again. That was a great goal to take on. In March 2017 my wife almost died of complications following a double lung transplant. It has been a long slow recovery but in the last 4 - 6 months she has really come ahead. I learnt that it is not things that matter but people. And although I find I need to keep pushing her with her exercise there are times when I need to hold her back. Remember slow constant progress is better than fast progress that cannot be maintained.

I'm not up with USPSA rules as we only shoot IPSC or ICORE here. Do they not have grading and if so can you request a regrade downwards?

I'll never be a National, or even Island (not State) in my case, champion shooter. In fact I sometimes despair of ever getting promoted up another grade. But I do tend to favour accuracy and tactics over speed.

I shoot with a bunch pf Phillipino shooters. It always amazes me that when planning a stage they only allocate two rounds per paper and one per steel. When they miss a steel plate they take another shot which leaves them short of ammo before their planned reload (IPSC Classic Division, 10 + 1 max minor and 8 + 1 max major per mag). They end up shooting to slide lock and wasting time working the slide, and they can never get back into sync, which means they shoot to slide lock for the rest of the stage costing more time.

I tend to the idea that you should plan your shoot and shoot to the plan, but if the plan goes pear shaped (as it usually does) you need to be able to adapt short term until you can get back on plan.

Enjoy your shooting and best wishes for your continued recovery.

 

[Bkreutz]

Great to see that you are recovering to the point to being able to shoot competitively again. That was a great goal to take on. In March 2017 my wife almost died of complications following a double lung transplant. It has been a long slow recovery but in the last 4 - 6 months she has really come ahead. I learnt that it is not things that matter but people. And although I find I need to keep pushing her with her exercise there are times when I need to hold her back. Remember slow constant progress is better than fast progress that cannot be maintained.

I'm not up with USPSA rules as we only shoot IPSC or ICORE here. Do they not have grading and if so can you request a regrade downwards?

I'll never be a National, or even Island (not State) in my case, champion shooter. In fact I sometimes despair of ever getting promoted up another grade. But I do tend to favour accuracy and tactics over speed.

I shoot with a bunch pf Phillipino shooters. It always amazes me that when planning a stage they only allocate two rounds per paper and one per steel. When they miss a steel plate they take another shot which leaves them short of ammo before their planned reload (IPSC Classic Division, 10 + 1 max minor and 8 + 1 max major per mag). They end up shooting to slide lock and wasting time working the slide, and they can never get back into sync, which means they shoot to slide lock for the rest of the stage costing more time.

I tend to the idea that you should plan your shoot and shoot to the plan, but if the plan goes pear shaped (as it usually does) you need to be able to adapt short term until you can get back on plan.

Enjoy your shooting and best wishes for your continued recovery.

Glad your wife is recovering, a double lung transplant makes me look at my bypass surgery as a band aid procedure , USPSA and IPSC rules are very similar, USPSA is the US branch of IPSC, there are some rule and division differences (which tends to be a point of argument every time discussions are made about renewal of association), your IPSC membership would allow you to shoot USPSA should you find yourself in the states, I live in WA state so we have a lot of Canadian shooters who cross the border and shoot our matches. The differences are pretty minor for the most part. I don't like rules too much so I shoot Open division. I always plan my reloads leaving extra rounds between reload points for makeup shots. (if I need one, my max load is 30 + 1 so I can shoot a lot of stages with no reload) There is a provision to move down in classification, but in the super senior class, we're all pretty slow (with a couple of exceptions) so it's not something that makes much difference. Good luck in the coming year, if I'm not mistaken, this is the start of your summer.

 

[Kiwi cop]

It's competition season

Glad your wife is recovering, a double lung transplant makes me look at my bypass surgery as a band aid procedure , USPSA and IPSC rules are very similar, USPSA is the US branch of IPSC, there are some rule and division differences (which tends to be a point of argument every time discussions are made about renewal of association), your IPSC membership would allow you to shoot USPSA should you find yourself in the states, I live in WA state so we have a lot of Canadian shooters who cross the border and shoot our matches. The differences are pretty minor for the most part. I don't like rules too much so I shoot Open division. I always plan my reloads leaving extra rounds between reload points for makeup shots. (if I need one, my max load is 30 + 1 so I can shoot a lot of stages with no reload) There is a provision to move down in classification, but in the super senior class, we're all pretty slow (with a couple of exceptions) so it's not something that makes much difference. Good luck in the coming year, if I'm not mistaken, this is the start of your summer.

Yep, it is summer (spring officially started last Saturday, 1st September) and the competition season.

Shot a combined IPSC/Speed match last weekend. Today I ran my clubs bi-monthly Service Match (90 round PPC/1500 style match at 50, 25, 10 and 7 yards). In three weeks time it is the North Island Championships and in the 3rd Week of November our Nationals. After that nothing until February when we have the first of my clubs two annual IPSC matches (and I get to be Match Director for the second one in March for all of my sins ).

I was planning on getting down to the South Island this year to shoot their Championship as for the last few years there has been no-one in my Division/Grade, but will be in the US instead. I timed it so I can shoot the North Islands before we go and the Nationals the week after we return. Purley chance of course, as was passing by the front door of Dillon Precision and Midway on our route. Unfortunately no time for shooting as our 5 weeks or so is all accounted for.

 

[MajorD]

I have long felt Ipsc/uspsa puts way too much emphasis on speed. Just my opinion but scoring should be such that it is impossible for someone who misses a target to win period.
I shot a match recently ( obviously not uspsa rules) where the majority of stages featured hostage targets positioned very close to threats. If you
Missed the threat there was almost no way to avoid hitting a hostage. A hostage hit cost you an extra 150 second penalty.

 

[Kiwi cop]

I have long felt Ipsc/uspsa puts way too much emphasis on speed. Just my opinion but scoring should be such that it is impossible for someone who misses a target to win period.
I shot a match recently ( obviously not uspsa rules) where the majority of stages featured hostage targets positioned very close to threats. If you
Missed the threat there was almost no way to avoid hitting a hostage. A hostage hit cost you an extra 150 second penalty.

Our National Classic Division champion is fast but has more than a few misses per stage.

I shot our North Island (State equivalent) Champs on the weekend and was accurate (80% plus A's, three misses (two weak handed at 12 meters) and very few D's) but I came second in my division/grade to someone who zero'd two stages but was a whole lot faster than me. (Actually I was ahead after day 1 but fell behind when the shooter made no mistakes on day 2 and I had a failure to extract followed by a failure to fire).

My best stages were where there was a lot of running between shooting positions (and I'm built more for comfort than speed) but the targets were close (under 8 meters mostly) and I could shoot quickly.

It has me thinking of not being so accurate, putting up with more C scores , to gain time. (I shoot major so only drop 1 point per C hit).

Still 150 seconds penalty for a miss/no shoot? That's a lot of time.

 

[fredj338]

Regardless of the game, I have always thought accuracy at distance + good time was the measure of a real shooter. Put targets inside 10y & ask for 8" pie plate accuracy fast is pretty easy, even for an old guy.