Cocked-and-locked carry. Good idea, or bad?

[andyo5]

Lobo, I am more concerned with retaining the gun in the holster (so it can't fall out or be snatched out easily) and unholstering the weapon than reholstering. I figure that unholstering occurs under stress, while reholstering implies that the stress has passed and you can take your time.
I will google to see if you have a website.
Thanks!

 

[Doug M.]

The Pistol Pocket should not have the pistol pointing at your goodies; I have one, and it is designed for Cocked n locked. As I keep losing weight, it may become a viable options again.

That said, the 1911 pattern pistol is designed to be carried cocked and locked. Any other path is unsafe and unwise. And find another gun shop to patronize. That guy is a dullard of the first class, and there is no telling what other mindless drivel he has spouted at you and others.

As for holster makers not wanting to make holsters other than those which force hammer down carry, they are actually forcing an unsafe practice on you, and might even be making their liability posture worse.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Browning Hi Powers came with a "safe system" or some such name for it not too long ago. This conversion was also offered for other guns by someone or another. This allowed safe hammer down carry on a live round.

Anyway, with a 1911, even if you accidntally flip the safety off and the trigger somehow gets pulled, it still isn't going to go off in the holster unless the grip safety is also activated.

Other than in a Miami Classic shoulder rig, I always carried cocked and locked autos in open top holsters.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by andyo5:
Lobo, I am more concerned with retaining the gun in the holster (so it can't fall out or be snatched out easily) and unholstering the weapon than reholstering.

Don't take this the wrong way but, are you new at concealed carry?

This concern about retaining the gun in the holster against intentional grabs and accidentally slipping out are typical of people new to this.

If you are going to conceal the gun, the retention built into boned (aka molded to the shape of the gun) holsters made of both kydex and leather is more than enough to keep the gun in during the most strenous of exertions. I have proved this to my satisfaction with all of my holsters, both worn inside and outside the waist.

If you are concealing the gun, and you are not a peace officer, the chances of someone trying to grab your gun out of the holster are so infinitesimally small that they are not even on my radar.

If you are a peace officer working in plain clothes, I can see the need for retention since you are actively going to look for trouble (comes with the job description). Otherwise, there are better things to worry about.

A quality M1911 does not need a leather strap between the hammer and firing pin to be safe. If yours does, then get it fixed or get rid of it.

IMO, you are needlessly complicating your holster search.

 

[DougE]

The only holster I've had with a retention strap was given to me. I found it to be a PITA and cut it off. The holster itself retains my pistol just fine without it. All a retention strap does is get in the way when drawing and reholstering IMO. As far as gun grabs go ...... the BG shouldn't even have a clue it's there until it's pointed at him.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

About what Wyatt Earp said. BTW, the Para, like Series 80 Colts, has a firing pin safety that works. That thing isn't "going off" unless you pull the trigger, and that's after the grip safety is actuated and the thumb safety flipped to "off." If you won't carry a cocked and locked Para or Series 80, you need to get a revolver, and a holster with a strap over the hammer, and carry the cartridge in your pocket.

Originally posted by george minze:
From my observations at the Chapman Range in Columbia Mo. years ago I watched in some fascination Israeli shooters fire very fast from hammer down and no round in the chamber.

I'll bet it took them two hands to do it, too. Not so smart.

 

[andyo5]

Originally posted by Model520Fan:
About what Wyatt Earp said. BTW, the Para, like Series 80 Colts, has a firing pin safety that works. That thing isn't "going off" unless you pull the trigger, and that's after the grip safety is actuated and the thumb safety flipped to "off." If you won't carry a cocked and locked Para or Series 80, you need to get a revolver, and a holster with a strap over the hammer, and carry the cartridge in your pocket.

....or an older Bianchi belt holster, made before their lawyers redesigned their holsters.
Maybe I have not been specific enough. I do not mind the weapon being visible. Complete concealment is not my objective with the Para Ordnance. For truly concealed carry (nobody can see it, ever) I carry a Model 642.

 

[Seaforth]

Why take a chance to save less than a second of time?

 

[andyo5]

After reading some of these replies and thinking about it, I am seriously considering switching from a .45 auto to a .45 or .357 revolver as an open carry gun. I shoot my revolvers better than my autos, anyhow. And they are simpler for me. Draw, point, shoot. I shoot double action and don't need to cock the gun.
My main candidates are a 4" S&W mountain gun or a 4" Ruger GP100. I also have a 4" Redhawk and it is a sweet gun but weighs 46 ounces. This will also simplify holster options. The Para will probably end up on Gunbroker.
Thanks all for your input.

 

[Guest]

As long as the "Thumb Safety" has been properly fitted - many of them aren't - then you'll be carrying the gun the way John Browning designed it to be carried.

 

[38-44HD45]

Originally posted by Seaforth:
Why take a chance to save less than a second of time?

Perhaps, because you most likely only have about 2 seconds to begin with?

 

[Spotteddog]

And lets see? In one second???? How important?
I make that about 1/8 of a mile @ .45ACP velocities.

 

[38-44HD45]

We old IPSiCcers learned long ago just how LOOOONG a second can be. Can't do it anymore, but when I was shooting a lot, I could do Bill Drills easily at 7 yards with all A-hits. For the uninitiated, that's 6 shots, from an audible signal, from the holster, in 2 seconds. Of course, that was with a race gun and a race holster, not concealed, but with 180 power factor ammo. A second is for-frickin-ever when someone is trying to cut or shoot you or beat you with a length of chain.

 

[Guest]

Well you might want to look at it another way. In your car at 60mph you're traveling 88 feet per second and at 120mph you're going twice that far!!!

Think about that the next time you take your eyes off the Road to adjust the radio in your car!!!

 

[ArgMauser]

Originally posted by andyo5:
The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons).

The only true way to be safe is to carry the gun unloaded and disassembled with the ammunition locked in a safe having an unknown combination. Now that's safe. No further comment.

 

[flop-shank]

Originally posted by ArgMauser:

Originally posted by andyo5:
The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons).

The only true way to be safe is to carry the gun unloaded and disassembled with the ammunition locked in a safe having an unknown combination. Now that's safe. No further comment.

Until you need it for self defense.

There is no perfect way. We live in a fallen world.

 

[cwo4uscgret]

For many years the Coast Guard required us to carry hammer down on an empty chamber while doing boardings. Chambering a round was considered to be a warning shot - as was chambering a round of 00 buckshot in a shotgun. We practiced drawing, chambering, then firing at the range. I never liked it.

Off-duty, today, I almost exclusively carry some 1911 ranging from a ParaOrd C6.45LDA, Colt New Agent, one of two Colt Combat Commanders, and numerous full-sized Colts, Sig, Taurus, or Rock Islands. Two days ago I bought a S&W 1911PD. Yesterday I went to the range with it; it is now my primary off-duty gun; I will continue to break it in but I see nothing but getting better with this gun.

In my opinion, when carrying cocked and locked I feel very comfortable and safe. In order for my 1911s to shoot the following has to happen (barring any unforseen catastrophic mechanical failures)...I have to draw the gun from its holster, firmly grip it to disengage the grip safety, disengage the slide lock safety, and squeeze the trigger - all while aiming in on the target. That's 5 functions I have to do - the "older" Texas Rangers used to deliberately defeat the grip safety by taking a piece of rawhide, string, or something else (shoe lace) and tying the grip safety down so it was disengaged all the time. I don't recall any of them shooting themselves with their Colt 1911s.

I am responsible for what my gun does; in over 45 years of shooting I have had 2 negligent discharges; both my fault and not due to the material condition of the gun. Being cocked and locked had nothing to do with it; all 4 of the above mentioned steps took place prior to me pulling the trigger. Stay safe out there...

 

[J.B. Thornton]

As long as all of the pistols parts are fitted correctly it is perfectly safe. A lot safer then a Glock that is carried cocked and no real safety, a baboon could get a hold of a Glock and empty the magazine, all that is needed is a pull of the trigger. The reason most people are scared of a cocked and locked 1911 is because they can actually see the hammer, all the working parts on Glock type pistols are hidden but does not make them safer.

J.B.

 

[szuppo]

I think if you have to ask you probably shouldn't carry the 1911 as your carry gun.

Not carrying cocked and locked will definitely take a precious second to get it into operating condition. Carrying coked and locked and not shooting it regularly from your carry condition will almost certainly have detrimental results.

I've seen countless people at the range draw a 1911 from the holster and try to squeeze off a round while the thumb safety was still engaged.

Add stress to the mix and your are asking for failure. JMHO

 

[bub75]

Originally posted by J.B. Thornton:
As long as all of the pistols parts are fitted correctly it is perfectly safe. A lot safer then a Glock that is carried cocked and no real safety, a baboon could get a hold of a Glock and empty the magazine, all that is needed is a pull of the trigger. The reason most people are scared of a cocked and locked 1911 is because they can actually see the hammer, all the working parts on Glock type pistols are hidden but does not make them safer.

J.B.

Bingo. With a properly fitted and assembled 1911, the gun will not fire even with the thumb safety off unless the grip safety is depressed. This is MUCH safer than a Glock, which has no manual safety and is, basically, cocked and unlocked when a round is chambered.

Bub