Collector Grade?

[wlp624]

I'm still in the early stages of S&W Collector's Disease, so I could use a little advice from the serious collectors out there. The following is a description of a gun for sale on an auction site. Aside from the general "Snake Oil Salesman" tone, what about the idea of replacing or refinishing a cylinder on a collectible gun in this value range (under $1000)?

"Excellent Collectors Grade Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 5 Inch Combat Magnum. Chambered In 357 Magnum, N Frame , Original Vintage Smith & Wesson Blue Finish. Original Smith & Wesson Box & Papers. This Gun Is Beautiful, Mint Condition. This Gorgeous Revolver Does Have One Flaw, The Cylinder Has Minor Finish Wear & Surface Pitting On A Few Areas Of The Cylinder. The Gun Is Like New Other Than The Cylinder. Smith & Wesson Can Replace The Cylinder For Under 80.00 For the High End Collector, With The Cylinder Repaired This Gun Will Be AS New In Box."

 

[fyimo]

A collector gun gun is an all original gun and has not been fired or fired very little and should have the right box, tool kit, and paperwork. It should also show no wear and certainly not any refinish work even by S&W. S&W refinish work is great but the gun is not original. Others can disagree as this would be the strictest version of a collector gun.

Other's think that a near mint gun is also a collector gun because so few are in that condition and so hard to find. But a NIB with only factory test firing and with all the goodies is in a league of it's own in terms of rarity and value to the right collector.

 

[wlp624]

Sorta what I figured, thanks fellas.

 

[P&R Fan]

That seller does not know much about Smith & Wesson revolvers.
A Combat Magnum is a M19 or M66.
That being the case his estimate of it's value may not be too keen either.
As stated, condition is everything.
Jim

 

[Sebago Son]

A 5" 27-2 is already collectable. Depending upon the era, $1000 might not be a bad price if the box, et all are correct. I'd look the gun over very carefully. Cylinder wear / pitting does not happen in a vacuum.

The $80 price for a new cylinder is pure BS. Used and in very good condition you should expect to pay twice that.

Drew

 

[MP1518]

There are few variations of COLLECTOR grade guns.

IMHO , most so called COLLECTORS collect condition.

Which means that they are after NIB or LNIB guns that are otherwise not really rare.

The other collectors , are after REALLY rare guns that they are lucky to get in any condition .

My friend just bought a model 19-3 that is really 100% in the box , unfired. Its is NOT a rare gun. But its somewhat rare in that condition.

My father has a Luger that was carried by an German officer in the battle of Moscow in Russia. Including the officers ID.

Its not unfired, boxed or even 100 correct. But its a RARE gun.

 

[sophie]

I don't think the seller has the slightest idea of the term collector grade. Just my way of thinking.

________
James

 

[fyimo]

I don't think the seller has the slightest idea of the term collector grade. Just my way of thinking.

________
James

A lot of sellers don't have the slightest idea and not even all collectors or people on this forum use the term in the same manner so it's not a clear answer by any means. A lot of dealers use the term way to loosely even to the point of abusing the term.

 

[MP1518]

I just talked to another collector I know here at work.

A lot of guns that He has are simply not available in LNIB condition at any price.

In case of otherwise common revolvers, one that is about 98% or better , in orignla box with at least an owners manual would be a COLLECTORS grade.

A factory nickel , pre model 29, 5 screw , 4 inch is NOT easy to find in ANY conditon .

 

[hotrod150]

.........In case of otherwise common revolvers, one that is about 98% or better , in orignla box with at least an owners manual would be a COLLECTORS grade. .........

I'm an accumulator, not a collector, but I agree with this definition. They don't have to be unfired & LNIB.
Unfortunately my accumulation (what I call my collection) is pretty much all shooter grades. The one revolver (1979 vintage) that is really nice doesn't have the grips,box, etc to make it a collector.

 

[MP1518]

I'm an accumulator, not a collector, but I agree with this definition. They don't have to be unfired & LNIB.
Unfortunately my accumulation (what I call my collection) is pretty much all shooter grades. The one revolver (1979 vintage) that is really nice doesn't have the grips,box, etc to make it a collector.

Here is my view on this.

I own a VERY old Ruger Police Service Six . Unfired , in orginal box , papers and original sales slip.

It it NOT a rare , hard to get gun. However in the condition that mine is , I do not see them for sale much.

It also has a value just as a really good gun.

My Colt Officers model match MKIII 6th issue is not in the box and is about 95%. But they only made about 490 of them and shipped 350 to the Middle East.

I am VERY lucky to find one in any condition.

"Collectors Grade" is just another way to describe a nice , minty gun . Does not mean much to me.

 

[GerSan69]

Hey Hotrod, I can identify with "accumulator." I look for guns that I personally like, and if the condition is acceptable and the price is right, I get them. While I certainly value the opinions of the experts, learning far more in a few months on this forum than I had buying/selling/trading firearms for over 30 years, I only have to please myself with what's in my safe!

 

[murphydog]

Too much subjectivity (personal opinion) in the term "collector grade". Most educated buyers can figure out the scarcity of a given gun with photos, a detailed description and (best of all) examining it personally.

 

[410bore]

There are few variations of COLLECTOR grade guns.

IMHO , most so called COLLECTORS collect condition.

Which means that they are after NIB or LNIB guns that are otherwise not really rare.

The other collectors , are after REALLY rare guns that they are lucky to get in any condition .

My friend just bought a model 19-3 that is really 100% in the box , unfired. Its is NOT a rare gun. But its somewhat rare in that condition.

My father has a Luger that was carried by an German officer in the battle of Moscow in Russia. Including the officers ID.

Its not unfired, boxed or even 100 correct. But its a RARE gun.

The above may sum it up perfectly.....

I collect what my money will allow......I have some pristine, complete examples and I have some lesser, shooter-grade" examples....they can always be upgraded.....

 

[toddimusnimski]

That seller does not know much about Smith & Wesson revolvers.
A Combat Magnum is a M19 or M66.
That being the case his estimate of it's value may not be too keen either.
As stated, condition is everything.
Jim

Right on, Jim. If the seller doesn't know the model number of his own gun, how did he come up with $80 for a replacement cylinder from the factory? If you call S&W and request a 27-2 cylinder, they'll probably say they've been out of stock since the Reagan administration...probably not much better luck with 19 or 66 cylinders, recessed ones at least.

Todd

 

[wlp624]

Great discussion, and again my thanks to everyone.

 

[Tom K]

I'm still in the early stages of S&W Collector's Disease, so I could use a little advice from the serious collectors out there. The following is a description of a gun for sale on an auction site. Aside from the general "Snake Oil Salesman" tone, what about the idea of replacing or refinishing a cylinder on a collectible gun in this value range (under $1000)?

"Excellent Collectors Grade Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 5 Inch Combat Magnum. Chambered In 357 Magnum, N Frame , Original Vintage Smith & Wesson Blue Finish. Original Smith & Wesson Box & Papers. This Gun Is Beautiful, Mint Condition. This Gorgeous Revolver Does Have One Flaw, The Cylinder Has Minor Finish Wear & Surface Pitting On A Few Areas Of The Cylinder. The Gun Is Like New Other Than The Cylinder. Smith & Wesson Can Replace The Cylinder For Under 80.00 For the High End Collector, With The Cylinder Repaired This Gun Will Be AS New In Box."

There's no strike through option, so I am repeating the ad description below suitably edited for how it should be read. I also removed the excess capitalization.

"Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 5 inch. Chambered in 357 Magnum, N frame, original vintage Smith & Wesson blue finish. Original Smith & Wesson box & papers. This revolver does have one visible flaw, the cylinder has minor finish wear & surface pitting on a few areas of the cylinder. The gun is like new other than the cylinder. With the cylinder repaired this gun will be a very nice shooter."

How does $1K sound now?

 

[Nightowl]

Smith has not made a recessed cylinder in 30 years. The cylinder cannot be replaced by the factory. One might find on floating around on Gunbroker or at one of the places that still have parts for sale, but you can bet it will be a good deal more than $80. It will not be original. In my mind the gun is more valuable with the warts than with a replacement cylinder. To me if the cylinder is pitted, it is a $500 shooter.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I'm still in the early stages of S&W Collector's Disease, so I could use a little advice from the serious collectors out there. The following is a description of a gun for sale on an auction site. Aside from the general "Snake Oil Salesman" tone, what about the idea of replacing or refinishing a cylinder on a collectible gun in this value range (under $1000)?

"Excellent Collectors Grade Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 5 Inch Combat Magnum. Chambered In 357 Magnum, N Frame , Original Vintage Smith & Wesson Blue Finish. Original Smith & Wesson Box & Papers. This Gun Is Beautiful, Mint Condition. This Gorgeous Revolver Does Have One Flaw, The Cylinder Has Minor Finish Wear & Surface Pitting On A Few Areas Of The Cylinder. The Gun Is Like New Other Than The Cylinder. Smith & Wesson Can Replace The Cylinder For Under 80.00 For the High End Collector, With The Cylinder Repaired This Gun Will Be AS New In Box."

I doubt S&W could replace the cylinder as the 27-2 has case heads recessed, and they no longer make that type of cylinder. You could probably get S&W to refinish it, but it will be a shooter, not a collector.

 

[Tom K]

I searched for this - Excellent Collectors Grade Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 - and easily found the auction. There is still about three days left on it. From looking at the pictures I wouldn't have thought the gun anything other than pristine. It speaks well for the seller that he mentioned pitting, but is slightly troubling that he provided no clear pictures of the affected area. In pictures 16 & 17 I can see a couple of tiny spots at the forward edge of the cylinder next to the flutes that might be what he's talking about, but can't really get a feel for how bad (or not) it might be. It would've been helpful for him to have provided closeups.

From his feedback the seller appears to be a buyer of boxes, manuals and other accoutrements.

 

[Mickey D]

I'm what I call an opportunist accumulator. I have many S&W and Colt revolvers and semi-autos that are in excellent condition, a few not so much and are place holders until I find a better condition firearm to replace them. Most I buy because the model interests me or it's a good deal, not because I feel I need it. I enjoy searching for better condition guns to upgrade the overall collection.

 

[k22fan]

The term “collector condition” remains undefined and we all know that, so considering how badly sales challenges most peoples ethics, it doesn’t bother me to see it used in this ad. The SCSW writes that an accurate and fair way to describe a gun is to say it is in what ever condition, except for specific flaws. That is what this seller has done, and the only thing I see in the ad that is significantly misleading is the claim that S&W would replace the cylinder for $80. However, considering the amount of trust that is required to mail money across the country to a stranger, that is serious enough to make a critical look at all his other claims prudent.