Collins Foundation B-17 crash

[Bat Guano]

My wife and I went up in that plane a few years ago. I had no qualms about it; it was immaculate and the crew were professionals. I'm glad the plane flew as long as it did; but as mentioned there is always some risk involved.

My son, who is a high time and very experienced pilot, flew their dual control Mustang a while back. He did mention that while they were in a dive he did have the thought that he was doing it in a 70 year old plane...

It's great to see those old warbirds, but every once in a while these things happen. Very sad.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

collins foundation B-17 Crash

My heart and prayers for all those that were on the flight. It is amazing how those old birds are still flying with parts that are non existing. Some years ago, the foundation was at a small airport and I had the opportunity to take the walking tour on one of those B-17 inside the aircraft. At that time, they were charging $500.00 for the ride. While being a former Pilot, I always admire the crew for the aged aircraft that are still flying. May they rest in peace.

Nick

 

[steveno]

in better days

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ7dyhgV260[/ame]

 

[steveno]

last words

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU2XXGI_Ke0[/ame]

 

[PALADIN85020]

I took these photos of the restored B-17 "Sentimental Journey" a number of years ago. I know it's well maintained, and the maintenance crew is quite qualified. I had a chance to go up in it, but it was a bit pricey. I can only imagine the thoughts of those going down in one - today or in WWII... My prayers go to the deceased, survivors and families.

One of my wife's uncles was a waist gunner on a B-17 in North Africa during WWII.

John

 

[Absalom]

I will be very interested to hear what the NTSB comes up with as a cause.

In view of the kind of damage many B-17's sustained over Germany and still brought their crews back alive to Britain (in fact, the model was famous for that), it's difficult to fathom how "engine trouble" alone, specifically the relatives' accounts of pre-flight issues with just one of the engines, could account for this loss of directional control upon landing.

And press reports keep bringing up the age of the aircraft (the unavoidable politician has already called for more restrictions on vintage aircraft), but since it landed in one piece on its wheels and didn't come apart in the air from metal fatigue or another factor that could be related to age, that seems the wrong tree to bark up too.

 

[charlie sherrill]

I've got a picture of my grandson looking out the window by one of the waist guns when 909 was in Hattiesburg,Ms. He wanted to fly but I couldn't afford it at the time. Prayers to the folks who were injured and killed.

 

[Walter Rego]

I remember before taking my flights on both the Collings Foundation B-24 and the ill fated B-17 having to sign a waiver or release regarding legal action in case of accident or injury (or worse, as we have just seen) aboard. They said the plane was categorized as an "experimental" aircraft according to the FAA and the risks were much greater than normal.

 

[Squarebutt]

I will be very interested to hear what the NTSB comes up with as a cause.

In view of the kind of damage many B-17's sustained over Germany and still brought their crews back alive to Britain (in fact, the model was famous for that), it's difficult to fathom how "engine trouble" alone, specifically the relatives' accounts of pre-flight issues with just one of the engines, could account for this loss of directional control upon landing.

And press reports keep bringing up the age of the aircraft (the unavoidable politician has already called for more restrictions on vintage aircraft), but since it landed in one piece on its wheels and didn't come apart in the air from metal fatigue or another factor that could be related to age, that seems the wrong tree to bark up too.

The flight records indicate that it never reached its normal altitude nor speed in three minutes of flight. The WWII pilots had the advantage of some altitude to work with when they were flying home in a damaged B-17. Also, I believe I heard that it came down short of the runway, right wing down low, before it hit the navigation tower, driving it across the runway and into the deicing equipment. The pilot had 7000 hours and had flown the 909 for 20 years.

 

[VaTom]

The flight records indicate that it never reached its normal altitude nor speed in three minutes of flight. The WWII pilots had the advantage of some altitude to work with when they were flying home in a damaged B-17. Also, I believe I heard that it came down short of the runway, right wing down low, before it hit the navigation tower, driving it across the runway and into the deicing equipment. The pilot had 7000 hours and had flown the 909 for 20 years.

Early reporting by media played voice from cockpit requesting return to airport due to problem with #4 engine. If I am not mistaken that would be outboard engine on right wing. If prop could not be feathered the prop would cause a lot of drag. I am not a pilot but my brother is a 40 year experience pilot and
Capt with major airline and we talked about the crash. Appears with only one engine working on right and two on left the aircraft would be prone to pull right when landing.

Sad for all.

 

[Absalom]

Early reporting by media played voice from cockpit requesting return to airport due to problem with #4 engine. If I am not mistaken that would be outboard engine on right wing. If prop could not be feathered the prop would cause a lot of drag....

An unfeatherable prop, maybe due to a loss of oil pressure, would be a major issue, and could indeed cause serious control problems trying to land, especially for a tailwheel aircraft.

 

[CH4]

Saw this outfit at McClellan Park (AFB) in Sacramento a few years ago. The B17 wasn't for there, but I played around in their B24.

 

[Absalom]

The NTSB preliminary is expected this week, but that may not contain more than a statement of the obvious. The final report will take a year or so and contain their definite speculation as to the cause.

I had the chance to discuss the crash this morning with a friend, an aviation enthusiast and a retired AF pilot who flew and instructed on the C-47 during Vietnam. One size smaller than the B-17, but still a multi-engine plane from the same era.

He is also puzzled. The B-17 has four engines, and could fly on two with ten crew and 5000 lbs of bombs and armaments, even if the two dead engines were on the same wing creating maximum asymmetrical thrust, so this plane loaded with only 13 people should have had plenty of power for a controlled landing no matter what the No. 4 engine did. My friend is certain that, unless the pilots simply messed up, unlikely given their experience, there are factors involved that aren't clear yet.

 

[VaTom]

The NTSB preliminary is expected this week, but that may not contain more than a statement of the obvious. The final report will take a year or so and contain their definite speculation as to the cause.

I had the chance to discuss the crash this morning with a friend, an aviation enthusiast and a retired AF pilot who flew and instructed on the C-47 during Vietnam. One size smaller than the B-17, but still a multi-engine plane from the same era.

He is also puzzled. The B-17 has four engines, and could fly on two with ten crew and 5000 lbs of bombs and armaments, even if the two dead engines were on the same wing creating maximum asymmetrical thrust, so this plane loaded with only 13 people should have had plenty of power for a controlled landing no matter what the No. 4 engine did. My friend is certain that, unless the pilots simply messed up, unlikely given their experience, there are factors involved that aren't clear yet.

They were very experienced pilots in that type. I read that the pilot was 75 years old and the copilot 71 years old. During the war the pilots were pretty young and could man handle the controls during problems. Mandatory retirement age for airline pilots is 65. Not saying that age was a factor as pilots have to meet FAA medical requirements and physical exams annually but may have been another factor.

 

[Marine Corps Air]

My thoughts are in line with the comments posted above by Squarebutt, VaTom, and Absalom.

Additional thoughts that I have:

1. If I am correct, the maximum passenger limit is ten (which was the case for this flight), along with three crewmembers (PIC, CP, and F/E);

2. I'm not sure what the gross weight was at takeoff (fuel, equipment, pax, crew, etc) for weight and balance. The NTSB report will provide this information later;

3. The temperature at takeoff and landing could be factors, especially in the case of a tailwind or crosswind for the landing;

4. The biggest possible (probable) factor for me is that malfunctioning #4 engine. I have always been told by other aircrew members that IF a malfunctioning prop can't be feathered, the crew will have major flight control problems, just as Absalom stated.

5. As has also been previously stated, both pilots were very experienced in both total flight time and total-flight-time-in-type with the B-17. So far, nothing has been presented that would lead me to believe that this was a possible causal factor.

Bill

 

[rockquarry]

Looks like there are many critics and self-anointed experts here who have no connection with the crash or investigation. Let's hope the agency looking into this has personnel that are truly experts.

 

[sureshotbob]

One of the original owners of the company I use to work for was a bombardier on a B17 in WWII.
Rudi washed out as a pilot so he was made a bombardier. He ended flying 27 missions 2 over the required 25 in the beginning of the war.
On one of his last missions the pilot was killed by a fighter planes cannon fire. The copilot took over till he was wounded by flack {he latter died}Rudi took over the plane with 2 engines shot out and on the way back to England lost a 3rd engine. Rudi got the plane back on the last engine and a prayer.
Rudi was awarded the DFC with 2 Oak leaves.
After his 27th mission Rudi was sent back to the United States and never flew again after the war.