Colt New Army Navy Revolver
- Thread starter merl67
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I have heard those voices in my head before, they never shut up until they are getting their way.
A very nice revolver!
noro
Member
Merl67,
Just a word of caution in firing it. These guns are almost impossible to repair if something breaks. The're all handfitted
with flat springs. Parts are almost unavailable, as people that
work on them.
I had one rebuilt when parts were available by a Colt warranty
center as a personal favor. The master gunsmith there said
never again. These are similar in trouble to Colt DA lighting
pistols in being troublesome.
These guns are very, very fragile after almost 120 yrs. Your choice, your gun, but I would be very hesitant in firing it.
Just a word of caution in firing it. These guns are almost impossible to repair if something breaks. The're all handfitted
with flat springs. Parts are almost unavailable, as people that
work on them.
I had one rebuilt when parts were available by a Colt warranty
center as a personal favor. The master gunsmith there said
never again. These are similar in trouble to Colt DA lighting
pistols in being troublesome.
These guns are very, very fragile after almost 120 yrs. Your choice, your gun, but I would be very hesitant in firing it.
DWalt
Member
Making up a and firing a few light loads would probably be OK, just so you could say that you had fired it. But I wouldn't make shooting it a habit. What has been said previously is correct. If you break something it may well be unfixable as very few gunsmiths today will touch one.
Some of these revolvers have chambers bored straight through, and therefore .38 Special cartridge cases can be chambered and fired. You can easily check to see if yours is one of those by seeing if a .38 Special case or cartridge will fit.
The original .38 Long Colt cartridge used by the U. S. military at that time used a 17.8 grain load of black powder with a 150 grain bullet. The velocity has been given as 723 ft/sec at 25 feet from a 6" barreled revolver. If I were loading for it, I would use a 148 grain wadcutter bullet (preferably with a hollow base) in a .38 Special case (if it fits) with a charge of no more than 2.5 grains of Bullseye.
Some of these revolvers have chambers bored straight through, and therefore .38 Special cartridge cases can be chambered and fired. You can easily check to see if yours is one of those by seeing if a .38 Special case or cartridge will fit.
The original .38 Long Colt cartridge used by the U. S. military at that time used a 17.8 grain load of black powder with a 150 grain bullet. The velocity has been given as 723 ft/sec at 25 feet from a 6" barreled revolver. If I were loading for it, I would use a 148 grain wadcutter bullet (preferably with a hollow base) in a .38 Special case (if it fits) with a charge of no more than 2.5 grains of Bullseye.
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
While noro‘s point‘s are well-taken, one should not exaggerate the issue. These are comparatively more complex, but you‘re not dealing with a Swiss watch. In my experience they don‘t break as easily as is sometimes claimed. They‘ll also never be rare collectibles, so the “risk” appears manageable.
And if you don‘t shoot it because it might break, the net result is the same as when you can‘t shoot it anymore because it broke. Except you had some fun with it.
And if you don‘t shoot it because it might break, the net result is the same as when you can‘t shoot it anymore because it broke. Except you had some fun with it.
daddio202
Member
I just wanted to add a tidbit of Colt information to the subject. In case you wanted to get a letter from Colt for more history on your gun. I am in the process of getting a pre-Woodsman lettered and have been waiting, and waiting. I submitted my request on Feb.6th and was told today Colt archives is running about 100 days to get a letter. Mine will just now be done this week and I may get my letter next week. So do it ASAP if you want a letter. I really like your gun it looks as if it has had good honest wear.
jag312
Member
I had a case where the suspect was shooting .38 Super +P ammunition in his revolver. From the serial number, the revolver had been made in 1896, and the chambers were bored straight through. You would expect that the cylinder would have at least bulged, or there would have been a catastrophic failure. Nope. The cylinder was fine, but the barrel was split. In case anyone is interested, the suspect died with the Colt revolver in one hand and a sawed-off shotgun in the other. Apparently, he didn't notice that as he got out of his car to rob a gas station, a police car pulled in right behind him.
I have heard of catastrophic failures from shooting .357 Magnum cartridges in the early black powder guns with the straight chambers.
If I do shoot it it wont be much at all. I have much better S&W revolvers for extended range time. I do like at least putting a few shots down range in these old ones. All cautions and warnings are duly noted and appreciated. If I do shoot it it will be with the lightest loads possible.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
As far as I know, at least the military variant was bored through until the Model 1903, so close to the end.
When S&W came out with the .38 Special K-frame labeled “38 S& SPECIAL & US SERVICE CARTRIDGE”, to emphasize that the .38 Colt fit the Special, Colt supposedly claimed in some ads that the reverse worked also, which it did, just not partcularly safely.
Since .38 Colt brass isn’t that common, folks will often down-load Special cases to the lower pressures. Most commercial .357 cartridges are fortunately too long to fit the cylinder, or we’d hear about more cases, but there are probably some flat-nose loads like wadcutters that are short enough.
old tanker
Member
The New Army, New Navy and the Officers Model Target were also chambered in .38 Special near the end of their production. Those so marked had cylinders with a "step' in them. They also sported barrels with a .357 bore diameter.
The revolvers with the cylinders bored straight through were intended for the .38 Long Colt, which at one time was loaded with an outside lubricated bullet. Early versions were also fitted with .361 diameter bore barrels. The reduction in bore diameter came with the 1903 military version of the revolver and commercial models somewhere long the same time.
This 1906 Officers Model Target is chambered in .38 Special and quite accurate still with standard velocity .38 Specials.
.38 Long Colt brass is more available now. Remington even loads .38 Short Colt these days so Cowboy shooters can use them in .357 Ruger Vaqueros with out bruising their hands, I suppose.
The revolvers with the cylinders bored straight through were intended for the .38 Long Colt, which at one time was loaded with an outside lubricated bullet. Early versions were also fitted with .361 diameter bore barrels. The reduction in bore diameter came with the 1903 military version of the revolver and commercial models somewhere long the same time.
This 1906 Officers Model Target is chambered in .38 Special and quite accurate still with standard velocity .38 Specials.
.38 Long Colt brass is more available now. Remington even loads .38 Short Colt these days so Cowboy shooters can use them in .357 Ruger Vaqueros with out bruising their hands, I suppose.
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DWalt
Member
I don't know exactly what happened to the revolver barrel diameter, but for sure, the .38 Long Colt used a solid-base inside lubricated bullet of 0.353" diameter from 1892 until 1909 when a change to a hollow-base bullet occurred. The switch to smokeless powder at Frankford Arsenal occurred in 1900, but I do not know the powder type or charge. The only .38 LC cartridges which used the heeled outside-lubricated bullet (0.376" dia.) were the very earliest ones used by the Navy.
I'm a sucker for a story with a happy ending. Sorry to hear, however, about the Colt barrel.
DWalt
Member
It is certainly possible that .38 Super (or .38 ACP) cartridges could have been used in one of the early Colts. My experience has been that some brands of .38 Super ammunition can be chambered in some .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers. But not all brands in all revolvers. As the .38 Super cartridge has a semi-rim, that is enough to provide adequate headspace. Even though the .38 Super bullet is slightly undersize, the cartridge performs OK in .38 Special and .357 revolvers, provided it will fit into the chamber. I'd think that most revolver barrels would not split from using an overpressured cartridge unless there was some bore obstruction or metal defect. The barrel-cylinder gap will normally provide enough pressure venting to prevent that from happening.
Most believe that a .38 S&W cartridge has a diameter too large to fit into a .38 Special chamber. But that is also not necessarily true. Some brands will definitely chamber in some revolvers.
Most believe that a .38 S&W cartridge has a diameter too large to fit into a .38 Special chamber. But that is also not necessarily true. Some brands will definitely chamber in some revolvers.
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old tanker
Member
"The Colt's double-action revolvers, caliber .38, in service are marked Army, models 1894, 1896, 1901, and 1903. The first model issued was that of 1892, but all the revolvers of that model were altered into model of 1894 by the addition of the locking lever, which is pivoted by its screw in a recess in the left side of the frame and prevents the hammer being cocked until the cylinder is positively closed and locked. The models of 1894 and 1896 are identical. The model of 1901 differs from the previous models in having the butt swivel for lanyard. The model of 1903 differs from the model of 1901 in having the diameter of the bore reduced to insure better accu- racy and in having a smaller and better-shaped handle. The model of 1901 revolvers last made have the thinner stocks"
DESCRIPTION OF THE Colt's Double-Action Revolver, CALIBER .38 WITH RULES FOR MANAGEMENT, MEMORANDA OF TRAJECTORY. AND DESCRIPTION OF AMMUNITION.
APRIL 1, 1905 REVISED OCTOBER 3, 1908 REVISED JUNE 19, 1917
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DWalt
Member
I looked it up. The Model 1903 diameter was decreased from 0.363 inch to 0.357 inch to increase accuracy. So apparently all those revolver barrels of earlier manufacture had a 0.363" diameter. Using a 0.353 bullet in a 0.363 barrel seems fairly sloppy.
bmcgilvray
SWCA Member
Sloppy is right DWalt. .358 diameter lead semi-wadcutters give no accuracy whatsoever in the barrels over .360 in diameter, will show some tendencies to keyhole in paper targets at 10-15 yards.
I do occasionally shoot two of the three Colt New Army/New Navy revolvers kept here, but mostly for the exercise. The actions are primitive and the double-action trigger is wretched. The revolver feels like its main spring is an "overload" spring out of a '54 GMC 3/4-ton truck.
Hollow base wadcutters will give quite reasonable accuracy with mild charges of Bulls-Eye in the .38 New Army/New Navy.
I do occasionally shoot two of the three Colt New Army/New Navy revolvers kept here, but mostly for the exercise. The actions are primitive and the double-action trigger is wretched. The revolver feels like its main spring is an "overload" spring out of a '54 GMC 3/4-ton truck.
Hollow base wadcutters will give quite reasonable accuracy with mild charges of Bulls-Eye in the .38 New Army/New Navy.
old tanker
Member
Here's a good article on .38 Colt ammunition. Old outside lubed bullets were a lot closer to .363 than .353.
THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR
THE CARTRIDGE COLLECTOR
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DWalt
Member
While the Colt .38 LC revolvers in military service were technically replaced by the Colt .45 M1909 New Service revolver (a stopgap for use in the Philippine campaign as the .38 LC revolvers couldn't cut in combat with the Moros) and later by the .45 M1911 pistol, the old revolvers soldiered on through WWI. However, they were normally relegated to use only in rear areas where they weren't likely to see combat action. Even after WWI, the .38 Colts continued in use into the 1920s by various state guard units. Most .38 LC ammunition for them was purchased before, during, and after WWI by the Army from commercial sources as Frankford Arsenal had better things to do than making obsolete cartridges for an obsolete military revolver. Military .38 LC ammunition having Remington, Winchester, Peters, and U. S. Cartridge headstamps is fairly common in collector circles. The ammunition was commercially loaded in the U.S. until around the late 1970s and I have several boxes of Winchester .38 LC ammunition I bought at that time in my collection. I think there are still some small custom loaders still selling .38 LC. It is fairly simple to make it yourself - just cut .38 Special cases shorter. But few need any.
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old tanker
Member
Lyman mould 358070 make a 150 grain round nose hollow base bullet well suited to the .38 Long Colt. I load them over 17 grains Goex FFFg black powder and a card wad. They shoot well in my Colt M1901 (.361 bore) and M1903 (.357 bore) Army revolvers. A friend tried them in his Model 1877 but they were not as accurate as his black power loads using the 150 grain round nose, heeled bullet he casts from a Lyman 358160.
Both of those moulds are long out of production, but a couple of commercial casters are making a suitable heeled bullet.
.38 Colt and .41 Colt have been loaded with both hollow base and heel bullets. Some guns seem to work OK with either one and some show a preference for one or the other. Having a buddy with "other" type mould a couple of Lightnings and an SAA in .41 Colt that is what we have observed .
Both of those moulds are long out of production, but a couple of commercial casters are making a suitable heeled bullet.
.38 Colt and .41 Colt have been loaded with both hollow base and heel bullets. Some guns seem to work OK with either one and some show a preference for one or the other. Having a buddy with "other" type mould a couple of Lightnings and an SAA in .41 Colt that is what we have observed .
kraynky
Member
Find someone to video you shooting it, and you can re-live it every time you watch it. Cool gun.
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