Alk8944
US Veteran
This is sort of a follow-on to the . 38 Special "Back in the Day". As a result some data will be repeated for a basis of comparison. Let's address some of the criticisms of that thread that came from readers not understanding the purpose of the post. Also some comments as a basis for comparison.
First, I shot what was available. I would love to have access to at least a box of Remington, Winchester and Federal .38 Special 158 Gr. LSWCHP +P ammunition from the mid-late 1970s, the "FBI Load". But, I didn't and don't, but if you have any of this ammunition I would be happy to chronograph it and report on the results. Until then we will have to content ourselves with what we have access to!
Second, as I remarked somewhere in the previous cited thread (http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/477347-38-special-back-day.html if you didn't see it) this is not intended to encompass the various ".38-44" aka "38 Hi-Speed", ".38 Super-Speed" etc. While these are high velocity loads for .38 Special they are not predecessors of the FBI Load. They are significantly higher pressure than the +P loadings! Likewise "Boutique" ammunition like "Super Vel", "Buffalo Bore", etc. In spite of their claims we have no way of verifying that they are actually loaded within SAAMI Standard Pressure or +P standards! Honestly, some of their claims seem a bit enthusiastic! I question that they actually have pressure testing equipment!!! And, finally, comparisons with "your" handloads, or some published loading data (See Speer #8) that is, bluntly, terrifying. None of these is the subject of the discussion!
Let's start with the basic testing protocol. All loads unless otherwise noted were fired from the same 6" Model 10-4. This is for consistency and direct comparison. All ammunition was fired at a range to the chronograph center screen of ca. 10 feet. Data is not corrected to the muzzle, but at this distance the correction for typical handgun velocity is to add ca. 3-5 FPS, so this doesn't create a large error, and is in compliance with SAAMI testing standards. Temperatures (ambient, not ammunition) ranged in the area of 65-75 degrees F for all testing, which spread over several years for some ammunition samples.
My intent is to inform you who do not have chronographs, don't have the ammunition tested, etc. of my experience, with my gun(s), and several specific factory loads. I do have data for several barrel lengths that were fired on the same day for some of this ammunition if you are curious. I will not post SD or ES, as, as they say, YMMV! The same ammunition, fired in the same gun on a different day, can give widely varying results for both of these factors, and velocity, let alone in different guns! Subsequent tests may vary by as much as 100 FPS in different tests. This is why, when I have posted the same load more than once, the velocities will vary somewhat.
I hope this adequately establishes the foundation for the following data and remarks. I realize there will be many who just look at the numbers and will not read any of the background information, they may be treated with if they post comments that make it obvious they have not read the background information!
First load, hand-loaded Black Powder 158 gr, 21.5 gr FFFg. Avg. for 6 round sample: 822 FPS Naturally this is "Standard Pressure".
Second load, W-W 158 RNL, typical "Police Service" ammunition. I had several boxes, same lot, dating to mid 1960s. Avg. for 6 round sample: 792 FPS
Same load, second test: 826 FPS
R-P 158 RNL, (sometime in the 1970s) Avg. for 10 round sample: 769 FPS
Federal "American Eagle" 158 RNL, (Purch. June 2016) Avg. for 12 round sample: 817 FPS
Note the really very similar velocity for the different ammunition! There is only an extreme spread of 57 FPS for commercial loads from 1960s, 1970s, current, and replica 1899 Black Powder loads! Any of these could vary anywhere within this range on a second firing, even from the same gun!
Now, recent Remington, Federal and Winchester 158 SWCHP +P "FBI" Loads. This is to show the similarity as much as anything! In no particular order:
Federal (White Box) Age unknown, fired 2010. Avg. for 6 round sample: 945 FPS
Fired May 30, 2016:
F-C Same box as above, Avg. for 10 round sample: 971 FPS
R-P Newly purchased May 2016 (RTP38S12) Avg. for 10 rounds: 970 FPS (So-called "New: HTP Packaging)
R-P "Old" version purchased a few months ago as a partial box (40+ rds) Old style yellow & green box, note hand written on the box Sept. 1989, so I assume that was when the original purchaser bought it! (Stock # R38S12) Avg. for 10 round sample: 969 FPS
It has been posted by others that the "new" Remington HTP load is significantly slower then the "old" R38S12 ammunition. As you can see that is not my experience. The new Remington, old Remington and Federal were all within 2 FPS for the 10 round sample fired of each! Published Velocity for both the Remington and Federal loads was 890 FPS. I have to assume this was from a 4" vent barrel as the SAAMI Standard Velocity for 158 gr. +P is 880 FPS from the 4" vented barrel. SAAMI Standard Velocity from the "solid test barrel", length not specified, is 1050 FPS. I have to say that, from my testing, both the R38S12 and RTP38S12 are absolutely identical! I did note that the "new Remington did "feel" somewhat softer, just enough to notice, but velocity was, again, identical!
Much of my previous shooting of the Winchester, Remington and Federal FBI loads was done from a 2" K-Frame to establish a base velocity for replicating the FBI load. I have 2 Model 12 2" and a Model 10-5 2". What I have seen from these loads has been 821 FPS for Win. & Fed. from the M 10-5 and 12 no-dash, and 811 FPS for the Rem. R38S12 from the 10-5. Not a statistically significant variation!
As my last post in the "Back in the Day" thread, and alwslate's remark it was in response to, I think that there probably, contrary to what many believe about modern ammunition being "dumbed down", is no real velocity difference between standard velocity .38 Special ammunition as originally loaded in the early 20th Century, including original Black Powder loads, late 20th century, and today! I see no statistically significant variation when fired from the same "real" gun! I believe the difference in published velocities for 158 gr. Standard Pressure .38 Special ammunition is from the change in publishing "test barrel" velocities (855 FPS) to publishing "4" Vented Barrel" velocities (755-770 FPS), not any difference in loading.
My last observation is based on the common claim that +P ammunition is only equivalent to "Standard Velocity" ammunition for .38 Special 40 years +/- ago. Chronographing the loads above puts the lie to this assertion! Yes, the samples are relatively small but I have several other tests that support what was posted! Of the "Old" ammunition posted for comparison the average velocity is ca. 805 FPS, and for the 158 gr +P loads that average ca. 963 FPS. To me 158 FPS, and the muzzle energy difference this represents, ca. 226 FPE compared to 324 FPE, a 43% increase, is not insignificant. Yes, these are 6" barrel figures, but they still translate to a significant difference in favor of the +P, regardless of barrel length!
First, I shot what was available. I would love to have access to at least a box of Remington, Winchester and Federal .38 Special 158 Gr. LSWCHP +P ammunition from the mid-late 1970s, the "FBI Load". But, I didn't and don't, but if you have any of this ammunition I would be happy to chronograph it and report on the results. Until then we will have to content ourselves with what we have access to!
Second, as I remarked somewhere in the previous cited thread (http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/477347-38-special-back-day.html if you didn't see it) this is not intended to encompass the various ".38-44" aka "38 Hi-Speed", ".38 Super-Speed" etc. While these are high velocity loads for .38 Special they are not predecessors of the FBI Load. They are significantly higher pressure than the +P loadings! Likewise "Boutique" ammunition like "Super Vel", "Buffalo Bore", etc. In spite of their claims we have no way of verifying that they are actually loaded within SAAMI Standard Pressure or +P standards! Honestly, some of their claims seem a bit enthusiastic! I question that they actually have pressure testing equipment!!! And, finally, comparisons with "your" handloads, or some published loading data (See Speer #8) that is, bluntly, terrifying. None of these is the subject of the discussion!
Let's start with the basic testing protocol. All loads unless otherwise noted were fired from the same 6" Model 10-4. This is for consistency and direct comparison. All ammunition was fired at a range to the chronograph center screen of ca. 10 feet. Data is not corrected to the muzzle, but at this distance the correction for typical handgun velocity is to add ca. 3-5 FPS, so this doesn't create a large error, and is in compliance with SAAMI testing standards. Temperatures (ambient, not ammunition) ranged in the area of 65-75 degrees F for all testing, which spread over several years for some ammunition samples.
My intent is to inform you who do not have chronographs, don't have the ammunition tested, etc. of my experience, with my gun(s), and several specific factory loads. I do have data for several barrel lengths that were fired on the same day for some of this ammunition if you are curious. I will not post SD or ES, as, as they say, YMMV! The same ammunition, fired in the same gun on a different day, can give widely varying results for both of these factors, and velocity, let alone in different guns! Subsequent tests may vary by as much as 100 FPS in different tests. This is why, when I have posted the same load more than once, the velocities will vary somewhat.
I hope this adequately establishes the foundation for the following data and remarks. I realize there will be many who just look at the numbers and will not read any of the background information, they may be treated with if they post comments that make it obvious they have not read the background information!
First load, hand-loaded Black Powder 158 gr, 21.5 gr FFFg. Avg. for 6 round sample: 822 FPS Naturally this is "Standard Pressure".
Second load, W-W 158 RNL, typical "Police Service" ammunition. I had several boxes, same lot, dating to mid 1960s. Avg. for 6 round sample: 792 FPS
Same load, second test: 826 FPS
R-P 158 RNL, (sometime in the 1970s) Avg. for 10 round sample: 769 FPS
Federal "American Eagle" 158 RNL, (Purch. June 2016) Avg. for 12 round sample: 817 FPS
Note the really very similar velocity for the different ammunition! There is only an extreme spread of 57 FPS for commercial loads from 1960s, 1970s, current, and replica 1899 Black Powder loads! Any of these could vary anywhere within this range on a second firing, even from the same gun!
Now, recent Remington, Federal and Winchester 158 SWCHP +P "FBI" Loads. This is to show the similarity as much as anything! In no particular order:
Federal (White Box) Age unknown, fired 2010. Avg. for 6 round sample: 945 FPS
Fired May 30, 2016:
F-C Same box as above, Avg. for 10 round sample: 971 FPS
R-P Newly purchased May 2016 (RTP38S12) Avg. for 10 rounds: 970 FPS (So-called "New: HTP Packaging)
R-P "Old" version purchased a few months ago as a partial box (40+ rds) Old style yellow & green box, note hand written on the box Sept. 1989, so I assume that was when the original purchaser bought it! (Stock # R38S12) Avg. for 10 round sample: 969 FPS
It has been posted by others that the "new" Remington HTP load is significantly slower then the "old" R38S12 ammunition. As you can see that is not my experience. The new Remington, old Remington and Federal were all within 2 FPS for the 10 round sample fired of each! Published Velocity for both the Remington and Federal loads was 890 FPS. I have to assume this was from a 4" vent barrel as the SAAMI Standard Velocity for 158 gr. +P is 880 FPS from the 4" vented barrel. SAAMI Standard Velocity from the "solid test barrel", length not specified, is 1050 FPS. I have to say that, from my testing, both the R38S12 and RTP38S12 are absolutely identical! I did note that the "new Remington did "feel" somewhat softer, just enough to notice, but velocity was, again, identical!
Much of my previous shooting of the Winchester, Remington and Federal FBI loads was done from a 2" K-Frame to establish a base velocity for replicating the FBI load. I have 2 Model 12 2" and a Model 10-5 2". What I have seen from these loads has been 821 FPS for Win. & Fed. from the M 10-5 and 12 no-dash, and 811 FPS for the Rem. R38S12 from the 10-5. Not a statistically significant variation!
As my last post in the "Back in the Day" thread, and alwslate's remark it was in response to, I think that there probably, contrary to what many believe about modern ammunition being "dumbed down", is no real velocity difference between standard velocity .38 Special ammunition as originally loaded in the early 20th Century, including original Black Powder loads, late 20th century, and today! I see no statistically significant variation when fired from the same "real" gun! I believe the difference in published velocities for 158 gr. Standard Pressure .38 Special ammunition is from the change in publishing "test barrel" velocities (855 FPS) to publishing "4" Vented Barrel" velocities (755-770 FPS), not any difference in loading.
My last observation is based on the common claim that +P ammunition is only equivalent to "Standard Velocity" ammunition for .38 Special 40 years +/- ago. Chronographing the loads above puts the lie to this assertion! Yes, the samples are relatively small but I have several other tests that support what was posted! Of the "Old" ammunition posted for comparison the average velocity is ca. 805 FPS, and for the 158 gr +P loads that average ca. 963 FPS. To me 158 FPS, and the muzzle energy difference this represents, ca. 226 FPE compared to 324 FPE, a 43% increase, is not insignificant. Yes, these are 6" barrel figures, but they still translate to a significant difference in favor of the +P, regardless of barrel length!
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It does raise the subject of a 
