Concealed Carry: Prime Examples where CCW Shooting is Justified

[johnny_yuma]

I carry a 380 pistol loaded with Tuger ARX rounds that solves the problem of non expansion from a short barrel 380. I have absolute confidence that at up to 30 feet I can incapacitate a a bad guy wit two shots from my Remington 380

Interesting..... Im reading about that ammo now.. here's a youtube review:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHRIC6xqKbs"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHRIC6xqKbs[/ame]

 

[okiegtrider]

You will always carry an internet ghost....... that you ask when it is "OK to KILL "..... if you ever are forced as a last resort to use deadly force..... the question will be asked ......."he sought out and memorized an excuse....... to live out his fantasy"

This right here. I know I'm not the only one around here that remembers just such a situation that unfolded right here on this board a while back.

Without quoting, or naming names, there was a now inactive member who posted a hypothetical scenario about killing his wife. Lo and behold, some months later he's arrested for her murder.

I know that the detective who worked that case was aware of that post, and others in different forums he made. When it became important, they dug way into the guy's online footprint.

Ultimately, that inactive member pled out to the murder charge and will be off the board for the next 20-40 years.

Not saying that is what is going on here at all, but illustrating that Bam is right. Things written on the net have a life of their own and it's a long one. Something bad happens, the questions will be asked.

 

[keith44spl]

I've said this often.....

The spoken word is as free as air...The written word is forever there.


.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I understand that you may have to pay a lawyer to get his advice, but what makes you think that the advice is of any useful quality?

Lawyers have many different areas of experience, and even those who specialize in the area of your interest differ in their competence.

Whose ***is is on the chopping block?

See post 26

 

[TomkinsSP]

Like Studies it is flawed, but it is what we have to consider. As for the type of ammo used I think we a canmake reasonable assumptions. The thinking over the time that suvey covered was when SD calibers starting with a 4 or a magnum were generally HP. For 380 and lower it was generally FMJ.

As for when death occured it is almost irrelevant. The more important statistic how many shots to reach incapacitation. incapacitation.

I guarantee you from personal experience, it is more important to incapacitate your opponent than to kill him. My objective in posting the study was to answer the claim that most incapacitation are lethal. The study shows that to not be the case.

I carry a 380 pistol loaded with Tuger ARX rounds that solves the problem of non expansion from a short barrel 380. I have absolute confidence that at up to 30 feet I can incapacitate a a bad guy wit two shots from my Remington 380. Beyond 30 feet I do not worry because unless the perp is really skilled regardless of caliber he is unlikely to hit me, especially when he gets sprayed with numerous cover fire.

Gunfighting is a science and an art.

Thank you for the link. It was interesting.

I agree that the goal on the street (not talking Wall or Nassau) is to survive. And that surviving means making the other guy stop shooting at you (bludgeoning you, garroting you, stabbing you etc). But we make the other guy stop shooting at us by aiming our weapons at a part of his anatomy, that if we hit it, will likely cause him to die. We aim at heads and hearts. Aiming at hands will get US killed, but if we really truly did not want to kill anyone we would accept much lower chances for our own survival and try knee shots, elbow shots etc. Bad news for bystanders, (as BAD as most people are hitting center-mass think of the results).

I have no quibbles with the report but don't think it refutes my PERCEPTION that INVOLUNTARY stops are likely mortal hits. (The author noted many stops were likely the result of peoples dissatisfaction with the act of being shot, he called them PSYCHOLOGICAL stops.

It showed what 9 can do, 38 does better with fewer rounds. Three fifty seven is king. IMHO it shows that people who carry .32s recognise the limitations of thier gun and make more head shots.

But the limitation is the group, the people taking those shots, I am guessing that everyone who missed or made a pheriphreal hit wasn't aiming for an elbow. They aimed for head or heart and got a femur.

I hope nobody who reads this ever faces a situation where they are forced to draw. If forced to draw I hope the threat beats feet screaming "Nooooooo", and consequently no shots are fired. If shots are fired I hope the "good guy's" aim is true and the criminal goes down without harming anyone. I hope nobody else is hit.

But I recognise that if the good guy's aim is true Mr. Criminal now has a sizable hole in his head or his heart (.311 is sizable (your .355 even bigger) in a frontal cortex). I have seen many formerly living people with holes in thier heads or thier hearts. (Target wadcutters many times.) I have never seen anyone shot in the head or the heart get up again, and very few hit near the heart get up.

Shooting at a human being is quite likely to result in death. And that is a big moral or ethical consideration in CCW.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

Good Idea, since California is biggest, the other 49 PR and DC should just adopt their statutes .

I guess that was an attempt at sarcasm?

There may be night classes to give you a hand with that.

 

[Kiwi cop]

I do not mean to be a spoiler but there is no meaningful evidence that a hit that leads to incpacition or another type of stop is likely to be lethal. The lethal stops are mostly going to be those that cause a person to bleed out quickly before aid can be applied or a devestating central neevous system hit like the brain or the brain stem.

If you were correct the number of KIAs in war would exceed the number of WIAs. But the fact is that WIAs are usually five times the number of KIAs.

A hit that incpacitates is one that stops the aggressor from continuing the fight. During my four tours in Nam I was shot twice. The first time my skull was grazed. It knocked me out but 15 minutes later I was back in the fight. The second time my left lung was deflated and I was out of action for a year. Both hits stopped me. Obviously, neither killed me. Keep that KIA to WIA percantage in mind and you will recognize that most stops are not lethal.

It s perhaps pertinent to recognise that, paradoxically, in a declared war zone the intent is not to kill the opposition but to wound. A killed opponent means one less opponent on the field. A wounded opponent requires up to 5 others to support and treat medically, that removes 6 opponents.

But I agree, a centre mass hit is not necessarily a fatal wound. Medical professionals are getting better at treatment of injuries that even 20 years ago would probably have been leather. And let's not forget Stacey Lim, an LAPD officer shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum round who survived. (She was so seriously wounded that surgeons could not administer anaesthetic, cutting her chest open and operating with no pain relief).

 

[TomkinsSP]

I guess that was an attempt at sarcasm?

There may be night classes to give you a hand with that.

Actually, I teach a section at the local CC (ENG 313 Sarcasm and Scathing Commentary Dangerfield 210 R 7.10-9.20 3.0). Come check it out, just a brisk (70 mile) swim to the east.

PS good luck on 11/18

 

[TomkinsSP]

I've said this often.....

The spoken word is as free as air...The written word is forever there.


.

But, free advice comes with a money-back guarantee.

Re: Von Clauswitz and the economic cost of injured combattants: there is a trove of literature on the State of Mississippi, and what it spent following the Civil War on artificial limbs, not the cost of providing medical services, but JUST PROTHETICS, depending on the year, from say 1866 to 1880, it accounted for 20 to 50 percent of the entire state budget.

 

[Walkingwolf]

It s perhaps pertinent to recognise that, paradoxically, in a declared war zone the intent is not to kill the opposition but to wound. A killed opponent means one less opponent on the field. A wounded opponent requires up to 5 others to support and treat medically, that removes 6 opponents.

But I agree, a centre mass hit is not necessarily a fatal wound. Medical professionals are getting better at treatment of injuries that even 20 years ago would probably have been leather. And let's not forget Stacey Lim, an LAPD officer shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum round who survived. (She was so seriously wounded that surgeons could not administer anaesthetic, cutting her chest open and operating with no pain relief).

Her heart was damaged, but not to the point of no return. The bullet nicked the heart diaphragm. Apparently it did not stop the heart from still working. Even if it had she could still continue to fight for several seconds, she did continue to fight.

Had her heart been destroyed they would have needed a transplant to save her. A heart that is completely destroyed cannot function to supply oxygen to the brain, even with CPR. They would almost need to do Intra-aortic Balloon Pump on scene.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I live 200 or so miles from a level 3 trauma center. People have almost no need for one in these parts. I imagine this is pretty common across the US. But in the unlikley event you get hit in the nine or ten ring here, you are going to die.

 

[DevilDog72]

This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

Actually, I teach a section at the local CC (ENG 313 Sarcasm and Scathing Commentary Dangerfield 210 R 7.10-9.20 3.0). Come check it out, just a brisk (70 mile) swim to the east.

PS good luck on 11/18

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

I've had my Masters in the art for a very long time, brother, and don't need any refresher courses. Observing and commenting on life around me, especially politics, keeps me in top shape.

Besides, I can't swim in fresh water worth a darn. I did get part way to Mexico once, fueled by Bali Hai, when I was stationed in Pensacola way back in the Stone Age. Could hardly sink a rock in that salty Gulf.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.

Bullseye!!!

 

[TomkinsSP]

This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.

Great advice, I would just add a couple things...

Its really good to have an idea how many threats you are facing, criminal perpetrators don't always act alone, look for accomplices as part of assessing the threat (before acting if possible.)

Moving away from a known second or third threat if possible and reloading, are more important than calling for backup or a bus, and IMHO should be done first. If anyone says that the perp is lying there bleeding and the extra minute it takes you to reload shows indifference, I point out that he is more likely to survive if you are not shot while making that 911 call.

And reholstering, recovering if CCW, is really really smart. You would not believe how many times officers arrive on a scene and the good guy is standing there holding a gun. Don't take a chance the responding officer is a rook who misreads the situation.

 

[TomkinsSP]

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Those who can't even teach: lead

A neighbor's son tried swimming to Milwaukee once, got just past halfway, got tired and turned around and swam back. Graduated with honors from State the next year

 

[ContinentalOp]

If anyone says that the perp is lying there bleeding and the extra minute it takes you to reload shows indifference, I point out that he is more likely to survive if you are not shot while making that 911 call.

Another thing to consider...if someone is shot and collapses due to lack of oxygenated blood to the brain, while lying down the heart doesn't have to fight gravity, making it easier to get blood to the brain; the attacker can potentially revive and re-engage. This has happened before and has been documented on video.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Another thing to consider...if someone is shot and collapses due to lack of oxygenated blood to the brain, while lying down the heart doesn't have to fight gravity, making it easier to get blood to the brain; the attacker can potentially revive and re-engage. This has happened before and has been documented on video.

So true, we were taught that if we were the first (or only), to keep our weapon trained on a downed perp, and be ready to reengage, while calling for backup and a bus (911 call).

 

[johnny_yuma]

This turned out to be an interesting thread... for me. As a former LTC instructor, seems like a long time ago, stopping the threat was what I preached... after front sight, center mass. When it comes down to it, I for one, believe you will know. If in doubt, do not pull it out. If you pull it... you need to be willing to use it. If you use it...call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance stating name, location and there has been a shooting. Reload, make certain no other threats are in evidence.. holster the weapon when police arrive. Do not volunteer any info... tell the officer what happened in as short an explanation as you can... then inform him you really are shook up and want to speak to your attorney.
The law and how it is interpreted is secondary to self preservation and the protection of your loved ones. Survive.
As one of our members, Keith44SPL, has put out there... bring enough gun....survive.
There is an old but relevant axiom out there, " I would rather be tried by 12 than convicted by 1".
The cops and DA will smell subterfuge.... tell the truth... you never have to remember the truth.
And one more thing... if a perp threatens me or mine, he and he alone, is responsible for the out come.

Well said Sir !! ..................To the point, short and sweet.

 

[Dvan34]

This thread is for Law Enforcement and persons with expert knowledge to demonstrate model examples where a Concealed Carry Citizen is justified in using their weapon to kill another human being.

Johnny- the wording to "kill another human being". Better wording is to stop the aggressive attack of another person. If that results in his death that will be decided by prosecutors and maybe a jury.

The intent must 'always' be to preserve your own life and/or the life of an innocent party.You may have to fire several times to 'stop' the attacker. You may have to fire at the Central Nervous System, head, neck area, or area as close or including the heart resulting in the death of the attacker. But your stated objective must always be to 'stop' the attacker not to kill him. Shooting to wound or disable? Under the stress of the situation that would not be recommended.